Author Topic: chasing athleticism (Read 1463239 times)

entropy · « **Reply #1020 on:** July 24, 2013, 10:11:46 am »

Quote from: T0ddday on July 22, 2013, 10:35:18 am

Quote from: entropy on July 21, 2013, 03:15:54 am

The interesting this about this week's training is I did very little FS volume (23 reps not including warmups) and a low amount of BS volume (56 reps) too. But yet my quads are sore. They never got sore like this when I did mainly a shitload of FS volume. I mean I used to do that many FS in just 1 workout. It gives support to my theory that my HBBS is way more quad dominant than my FS. I still find it confusing what this means for my musculature - how am I getting the FS up if not with my quads? Glutes? But my glutes are terrifically weak as shown by the glute activation exercises i've been doing lately. Real life mystery. For whatever it's worth though, my backsquat isn't even heavy right now, the weights i'm using are weights i can use for FS for the same reps. So I probably have a lot of potential left in me yet. By next week this time i'll only just have got near my PR weights on the HBBS. And from there I would like to add another 20kg to my HBBS.

Soreness shouldn't really be trusted as that good an indicator of muscle involvement. Soreness can vary based on diet, lifestyle, stress, technique, eccentric speed, etc. Additionally, if you stress the muscle belly near the insertion it's more likely to get sore; different firing patterns may make a muscle more or less sore but muscle activation doesn't always correlate.

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You have front squatted awhile and you did it in the absence of back squat. Don't forget that. People are always amazed at the muscle activation of a new exercise. Had you back squatted exclusively for a year and then started front squatting you would be posting "OMG front squats make my quads sooooo sore, they must be much more quad dominant". After about 3 years of training you won't hardly get sore at all except for strange dull tendon feelings; then you will be able to better judge.

I accept your points but I would like to provide some more info. Til April I was squatting 50-50% FS and BS volume for about 6 months.My BS PR was 6x117.5 around May. Since then I stopped using BS while healing my hips. Now my hips are fine I'm BS again. But this time my FS volume has gone down to like 33% what it used to be! Meanwhile BS volume is the same. I'm eating a shitload of food now (back then I was cutting hard!). So these facts bear explaining. How is that my quads are toast after backsquat. Not just doms but like during the sets and immediately after I have a burn in my legs. I'm actually experiencing what colloquially would be felt after a 'leg day'. But my total squat volume is much less now. My BS volume is low to medium thru the week. It's eerie! I used to do waayy more squat volume (with both FS and BS) and while cutting hard and still I didn't have this kind of leg soreness.

T0ddday · « **Reply #1021 on:** July 24, 2013, 10:11:50 am »

Knees coming together is a common problem especially in tall athletes. I've trained guys taller than you whose knees come in so close that they almost touch when he lifts really heavy weights.

Your goal is pretty ambitious ( you expect to add ~60lbs to your 6 rep max in 4 weeks???? ) I would make an effort to fix that problem. I've worked on it a lot with a taller athlete; X-band walks seem to help or even bands around knees with light squats. Anything to get your hips/glute medius stronger; skater jumps also good. If you do a set of skater jumps put your outside hand at the top of your outside hip and feel the top glute muscle that should be activated.... Get that strong.

Your knees coming together is partially because of anthropometry BUT it's still something you need to fix with specific strength.

entropy · « **Reply #1022 on:** July 24, 2013, 10:18:10 am »

Quote from: T0ddday on July 24, 2013, 10:11:50 am

Knees coming together is a common problem especially in tall athletes. I've trained guys taller than you whose knees come in so close that they almost touch when he lifts really heavy weights. I would make an effort to fix that problem. I've worked on it a lot with a taller athlete; X-band walks seem to help or even bands around knees with light squats.

I discoved x-band walks last week. The problem with this - it's teh wrong leg which gets a burn/fatigue. My weak leg which comes in doesn't get ANYTHING out of the x-band walks. That's frustrating me so much. I do the exercise symmetrically - up and down so it should affect both sides equally. And yet by the end my strong left leg is burning and my right weak leg is fine!!! I'm now trying to isolate my right leg with bands but with a different exercise.

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Anything to get your hips/glute medius stronger; skater jumps also good. If you do a set of skater jumps put your outside hand at the top of your outside hip and feel the top glute muscle that should be activated.... Get that strong. Your knees coming together is partially because of anthropometry BUT it's still something you need to fix with specific strength.

Thanks, i'll try that out.

edit. forgot to reply to this

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Your goal is pretty ambitious ( you expect to add ~60lbs to your 6 rep max in 4 weeks???? )

My thinking is the meter doesn't start counting til I reach my old PR of around ~6x120kg. From there I'd like to add another 20kg. Yes ambitious. But I haven't focused on BS so I think I have some gains to be made yet. Like even now I BS after doing my frontsquats so i'm not doing my BS fresh or anything. Also, I can ATG FS about 130kg, so that means my BS is under-achieving and ripe for pushing up easily. I've been adding 2kg a workout, 3x a week for the last month or so, haven't stalled yet so that's why i've set my eyes on 6x140kg.

T0ddday · « **Reply #1023 on:** July 24, 2013, 10:24:20 am »

Quote from: entropy on July 24, 2013, 10:11:46 am

I accept your points but I would like to provide some more info. Til April I was squatting 50-50% FS and BS volume for about 6 months.My BS PR was 6x117.5 around May. Since then I stopped using BS while healing my hips. Now my hips are fine I'm BS again. But this time my FS volume has gone down to like 33% what it used to be! Meanwhile BS volume is the same. I'm eating a shitload of food now (back then I was cutting hard!). So these facts bear explaining. How is that my quads are toast after backsquat. Not just doms but like during the sets and immediately after I have a burn in my legs. I'm actually experiencing what colloquially would be felt after a 'leg day'. But my total squat volume is much less now. My BS volume is low to medium thru the week. It's eerie! I used to do waayy more squat volume (with both FS and BS) and while cutting hard and still I didn't have this kind of leg soreness.

Certainly strange I will give you that. Not strange enough to favor soreness or burn as gold standards for muscle activation but certainly interesting. One possible conjecture: Restrictive dieting does funny things to the body. It could be without glycogen stores you don't get nearly the muscle pump and thus don't feel the burn as when you are in well fed state. I don't have studies that bear that out but in my experience that seems to be true. I have noticed this unfortunate fact on the track: I can run a decent 60m/100m despite a pretty massive bodyweight (5'11 & 200-220lbs). However, it's almost impossible to move down the track for the longer sprints (200m, especially 400m) when I'm heavy. However, when I'm dieting restrictively my training times for the 200m/400m get really bad. The race becomes LESS painful but my legs simply don't have as much strength and I feel like I'm fast but the clock says I am slow. When I'm in a more fed state I am able to perform so much better in the long sprints; BUT the muscle pump and cramping is incredibly intense and painful. I have not been dieting at all for the last couple weeks. I ran 2 400m races last week (400m and 4x4). Ran pretty well (the combo of relatively light but not dieting is of course ideal) BUT after the 4x4 my quads/glutes/hamstrings had the most intense pump ( in track parlance is called booty-lock ). The lactate in combination with the muscle pump was so bad I had to get to the restroom and change out of my compressions because the muscles were screaming so much. THAT never happens if I am dieting!

T0ddday · « **Reply #1024 on:** July 24, 2013, 10:37:44 am »

Quote from: entropy on July 24, 2013, 10:18:10 am

My thinking is the meter doesn't start counting til I reach my old PR of around ~6x120kg. From there I'd like to add another 20kg. Yes ambitious. But I haven't focused on BS so I think I have some gains to be made yet. Like even now I BS after doing my frontsquats so i'm not doing my BS fresh or anything. Also, I can ATG FS about 130kg, so that means my BS is under-achieving and ripe for pushing up easily. I've been adding 2kg a workout, 3x a week for the last month or so, haven't stalled yet so that's why i've set my eyes on 6x140kg.

Fair enough. My fault for not following your journal close enough. You want to get your backsquat PR 10kgs above your front squat PR with four weeks of focus. That would sound MUCH more reasonable if your knees didn't go in like that. Pushing a max up when you have such a mechanical problem is a bit dangerous IMO. It's funny the taller athlete I trained; his inward knee pull was such a problem I had him switch to exclusive front squats for awhile (were the problem is not really there) which allowed him to get his front squat PR really high relative to his back squat PR... He has since switched back and we have managed his form a bit but it is a struggle. Speaking to your other point; it could be that your weak glutes dont stabilize you in the back squat and your knees track inward which puts undue stress on your quads. Basically, you tall guys have weird muscle patterns! The best thing to do might be to really figure out what causes the knee tracking inward. I would bet it's that glute medius but it could be hip flexor. Basically sit in a chair and track your knees together and feel the muscles on your hip/glute that are used to keep it out. Some hip flexor work, glute thrusts, etc will go along way toward your athleticism goals.

entropy · « **Reply #1025 on:** July 24, 2013, 10:47:11 am »

Quote from: T0ddday on July 24, 2013, 10:37:44 am

Quote from: entropy on July 24, 2013, 10:18:10 am

My thinking is the meter doesn't start counting til I reach my old PR of around ~6x120kg. From there I'd like to add another 20kg. Yes ambitious. But I haven't focused on BS so I think I have some gains to be made yet. Like even now I BS after doing my frontsquats so i'm not doing my BS fresh or anything. Also, I can ATG FS about 130kg, so that means my BS is under-achieving and ripe for pushing up easily. I've been adding 2kg a workout, 3x a week for the last month or so, haven't stalled yet so that's why i've set my eyes on 6x140kg.

Fair enough. My fault for not following your journal close enough. You want to get your backsquat PR 10kgs above your front squat PR with four weeks of focus. That would sound MUCH more reasonable if your knees didn't go in like that.

lol yup. Well I want to get my 6 rep BS to be 10kg above my current 1 rep FS max, which is much harder granted. But I expect in the process my FS will go up some while my BS worksets goes up 20kg from 120kg to 140kg because i'll build some muscle and general strength. But you're right it's ambitious sounding esp with my plight of form problems.

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Pushing a max up when you have such a mechanical problem is a bit dangerous IMO. It's funny the taller athlete I trained; his inward knee pull was such a problem I had him switch to exclusive front squats for awhile (were the problem is not really there) which allowed him to get his front squat PR really high relative to his back squat PR... He has since switched back and we have managed his form a bit but it is a struggle.

I agree with you than it's dangerous if my form doesn't improve. It's been 1 week of doign remedial work. Lets hope it starts to correct my form soon.

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Speaking to your other point; it could be that your weak glutes dont stabilize you in the back squat and your knees track inward which puts undue stress on your quads. Basically, you tall guys have weird muscle patterns! The best thing to do might be to really figure out what causes the knee tracking inward. I would bet it's that glute medius but it could be hip flexor. Basically sit in a chair and track your knees together and feel the muscles on your hip/glute that are used to keep it out. Some hip flexor work, glute thrusts, etc will go along way toward your athleticism goals.

Thanks so much. That gives me ideas for how to proceed from here. I've edited my workout entry and added a front video video. Does that help illuminate anything? I'll follow your advice to hit my my glutes and hips specifically and see if that improves my form!!

Raptor · « **Reply #1026 on:** July 24, 2013, 01:37:12 pm »

What about clams for that knee caving problem?

entropy · « **Reply #1027 on:** July 24, 2013, 02:10:50 pm »

Not a bad idea. Can do them against bands too. A machine wud be perfect cause it could resist you both ways. Bands only apply resistance in one direction. Could my right hamstring be to blame? Will 1 leg rdl diagnose it?

entropy · « **Reply #1028 on:** July 25, 2013, 08:30:50 am »

So an update. My hips (R) are quite inflammed today as a result of yesterday's squatting. This sucks. But i've made some changes that hopefully will improve my form and prevent hip re-injury

1. Ditched my makeshift platform. It had started to buckle and creak too much and I think it's better to go without it than continue using it.
2. Moved my power cage to a different location
3. Using carpet over the brick paved floor
4. diagnosed my mobility problem as "Poor Internal Hip Rotation" from a Starett video

Re lack of IR - I can make my hips magically feel good by moving my knee out and in while tensing my calves. When I took a video of my squat in the new power rack position, my hips are symmetrical and even on both sides (only used the empty bar but I suspect it will be the same with weight too?)

So we'll see what happens tomorrow. Fingers crossed..

LBSS · « **Reply #1029 on:** July 25, 2013, 11:54:02 am »

do you mean literally inflamed, like, visibly swollen? or just painful? if the former,

entropy · « **Reply #1030 on:** July 25, 2013, 12:47:42 pm »

Quote from: LBSS on July 25, 2013, 11:54:02 am

do you mean literally inflamed, like, visibly swollen? or just painful? if the former,

Not visibly just tender/painful mate.

Starrett video suggested that low internal hip rotation was the reason for my R knee cave in. I've ruled that out, my internal hip rotation is fine both sides.

entropy · « **Reply #1031 on:** July 25, 2013, 02:25:42 pm »

New Hypothesis: My knee-caving problem is caused by my unstable R ankle. I can't maintain a stable foot position throughout the set because my right ankle is too weak.

Yep now convinced my problem is my ankle. I dont have a stable ankle. I must have fucked it up from basketball along the way and never noticed it til now. My R ankle sucks compared to my beasting L ankle. It's supple and firm and stable, the opposite of the R one. Btw last year when I had a severe ankle injury which took me over 6 months to heal? Yup that was my L one. So the R problem must be going back years maybe a decade back. I did have a sprain I think in 2002 or 2003 which was pretty bad but for the life of me cant remmber which leg it was. Anyway that's not important. This is heart breaking, it means no ATG front squatting. Just shitty leaning over fucked up squats which hurt my hips and god knows what else. And what am i supposed to do now for training. If I keep squatting i'll just keep hurting myself again. Doctors are shit dont expect seeing one will be worth the money, i can see it already, "there is nothing wrong with you, you're perfectly healthy why do you need perfect ankles you're not a professional athlete and this doesn't impede anyones daily life" which is all true of course, not being able to squat is not exactly a quality of life problem lol.

so yeah, this sucks but it certainly explains why i'm such a bad squatter.

sorry for the sob story ;( lol .. i have put in a lot of effort and work into squatting just didnt know it would come to this. I'm lucky i haven't torn my ACL/MCL while squatting like this, it's only a matter of time though. It's too dangerous doing barbell squats with an unstable foot.

LBSS · « **Reply #1032 on:** July 25, 2013, 03:35:14 pm »

both your knees cave, so why do you think the problem is in one ankle? also, knees caving as a result of ankle instability makes no sense as far as i can tell. it's much more likely to be a result of immobility and/or weakness in your hips and upper legs.

entropy · « **Reply #1033 on:** July 25, 2013, 04:17:22 pm »

Quote from: LBSS on July 25, 2013, 03:35:14 pm

both your knees cave, so why do you think the problem is in one ankle? also, knees caving as a result of ankle instability makes no sense as far as i can tell. it's much more likely to be a result of immobility and/or weakness in your hips and upper legs.

Just the R one from what i've seen on video. L one is pretty stable in comparison. Lateral ankle stability is the issue. Either i've got restricted mobility in my L ankle. Or my R ankle is hella unstable. My experience with ankles is n=2 so I dunno. I'm gonna try see a specialist and get their opinion. But honestly my R ankle feels like jelly i can move my foot around so easily and it gives little resistance in 180 degrees. This affects squats because it makes for a 'low torque environment' in kelly speak (been reading his book). During squats my right foot has a tendency to rotate externally, my heel slides in and my toes slide out. How does this lead to knee caving? well think about it, the ankle and the knee aren't aligned in tension making the leg unstable and in trying to find stability knee has to come in. It's so obvious now it's a wonder it never occurred to me before. All that mobility mumbo jumbo about hips was just noise.

Raptor · « **Reply #1034 on:** July 25, 2013, 05:19:24 pm »

You're thinking too much.

If an overanalyzer like me tells you that then you need to pause and think about it.

Oh wait, nevermind, DON'T THINK ABOUT IT. STOP THINKING.

Your only worry should be "I have to get stronger using perfect form". If you have this tendency to collapse then lower the weight to where you can use perfect form and work your way back up. When you reach your current PR using this better form you will see improvements in the field as well.

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Author Topic: chasing athleticism (Read 1463239 times)

entropy

Re: chasing athleticism

T0ddday

Re: chasing athleticism

entropy

Re: chasing athleticism

T0ddday

Re: chasing athleticism

T0ddday

Re: chasing athleticism

entropy

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Raptor

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entropy

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entropy

Re: chasing athleticism

LBSS

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entropy

Re: chasing athleticism

entropy

Re: chasing athleticism (figured out what's wrong with me)

LBSS

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entropy

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Raptor

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