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The thing with LBSS though, in terms of quality jump sessions, is he does have alot of them. He knows when to perform ME jumps and when to backoff dunk attempts and go back to ME jumps etc. So he gets in alot of good quality when he's not down-shifting due to some knee aches etc. I'd easily say LBSS understands his body & how it is effected by training, better than scoob. He also doesn't veer off into major tangents like scoob does, and this is mostly because of how the previous point. He's also been following some solid programming/advice for several months :F Scoob takes advice from all angles and blends alot of it together. The one thing i'm glad he is doing lately is getting back to squatting heavy.

Forgot to reply to this before but this is such a great point everyone should read it multiple times!  The progress LBSS has made isn't necessarily because they guy he listens to is any good (me) but because he follows one set of instructions and downshifts advice and programming... 

This is basically the key to progress... Too many people treat training like making a salad or a pizza - you can't just throw some of this or that in and see how it tastes...

No coach is perfect and some coaches are better than others... No programming is perfect but the best results come from following one coach and one plan to get results...  Follow the plan and if you don't like the results of the coach/plan then get a new coach and follow his plan.  Do not modify instructions UP only DOWN.  If your coach says to do 30 ME jumps and your knees hurt then don't listen to him!  Downshift. Do 10.  Or do zero.  Downshift for your body... But if your feeling it that day don't do 60 ME jumps and then complain about how the workout the next day was too hard...

This is a really frustrating thing I get all the time with people I train...  I will train them and get them on a good program and they aren't making much gains and then I talk to them and they say "Oh yeah every Tuesday/Thurs I have been doing 100 vertimax jumps, and running 2 miles on the beach in the sand with a weight vest".   When I tell them this is stupid they have the same excuse "Well person X online who is way better at dunking than you (and therefore knows more I guess) swears by the vertimax and person Y who is faster than you said nothing got him faster than running on soft sand surfaces to build up his tendons".   

That's all well and good. Person X and Y may be better athletes than I ever was and may be better at coaching and than I ever will be...  I'm not the best.  I wouldn't have a problem with them soliciting person X and getting a coaching and training programming from that person instead of myself...  Person X's coaching may be 100x better than mine...  But I guarantee even if that's the case, my training program is still far better than my training program + piece of person X's training tools + a piece of person Y's training tools...  Scooby gets advice from so many talented people...  He gets advice on body composition from Kadour Ziani who is a legend... But Ziani doesn't squat...  He is also extremely flexible... He may be a legend but a one piece of his formula mixed with a bunch of different formulas (that may also be winning formulas) still won't be any good...

Quote from: adarqui on August 17, 2016, 03:29:14 am

The thing with LBSS though, in terms of quality jump sessions, is he does have alot of them. He knows when to perform ME jumps and when to backoff dunk attempts and go back to ME jumps etc. So he gets in alot of good quality when he's not down-shifting due to some knee aches etc. I'd easily say LBSS understands his body & how it is effected by training, better than scoob. He also doesn't veer off into major tangents like scoob does, and this is mostly because of how the previous point. He's also been following some solid programming/advice for several months :F Scoob takes advice from all angles and blends alot of it together. The one thing i'm glad he is doing lately is getting back to squatting heavy.

Forgot to reply to this before but this is such a great point everyone should read it multiple times!  The progress LBSS has made isn't necessarily because they guy he listens to is any good (me) but because he follows one set of instructions and downshifts advice and programming... 

This is basically the key to progress... Too many people treat training like making a salad or a pizza - you can't just throw some of this or that in and see how it tastes...

No coach is perfect and some coaches are better than others... No programming is perfect but the best results come from following one coach and one plan to get results...  Follow the plan and if you don't like the results of the coach/plan then get a new coach and follow his plan.  Do not modify instructions UP only DOWN.  If your coach says to do 30 ME jumps and your knees hurt then don't listen to him!  Downshift. Do 10.  Or do zero.  Downshift for your body... But if your feeling it that day don't do 60 ME jumps and then complain about how the workout the next day was too hard...

This is a really frustrating thing I get all the time with people I train...  I will train them and get them on a good program and they aren't making much gains and then I talk to them and they say "Oh yeah every Tuesday/Thurs I have been doing 100 vertimax jumps, and running 2 miles on the beach in the sand with a weight vest".   When I tell them this is stupid they have the same excuse "Well person X online who is way better at dunking than you (and therefore knows more I guess) swears by the vertimax and person Y who is faster than you said nothing got him faster than running on soft sand surfaces to build up his tendons".   

That's all well and good. Person X and Y may be better athletes than I ever was and may be better at coaching and than I ever will be...  I'm not the best.  I wouldn't have a problem with them soliciting person X and getting a coaching and training programming from that person instead of myself...  Person X's coaching may be 100x better than mine...  But I guarantee even if that's the case, my training program is still far better than my training program + piece of person X's training tools + a piece of person Y's training tools...  Scooby gets advice from so many talented people...  He gets advice on body composition from Kadour Ziani who is a legend... But Ziani doesn't squat...  He is also extremely flexible... He may be a legend but a one piece of his formula mixed with a bunch of different formulas (that may also be winning formulas) still won't be any good...

yup! well said. The downshift vs upshift analogy is helpful. Also as far as coaching, that's definitely really frustrating when an athlete taps into their recovery and doesn't let you know.. not only training, but partying/drinking etc. it can just wreck everything.

and as for the pizza analogy.. i'd prefer that people who are going to attempt the "making a pizza approach" pick only a few toppings -> few core exercises .. and just really try to improve those. Don't just throw in garlic rolls, 20 toppings, antipasto, tacos, and kung pao chicken. If you are winging it instead of following a very structured program/protocol, it's just essential to really understand progression; by reps/distances, sets, intensity, speed of reps, rest interval between sets, frequency of training, recovery requirements, consistency over time, etc.. People with a sense of progression generally make more progress IMHO. It's the main difference between novices and intermediates.. For example, novices will complete 3x5 at some weight and not pay attention to speed of reps, how recovered they felt using a specified rest period (if they are even using one to begin with), how they felt after & the next day. Intermediates & advanced athletes can usually tune into all of these little details .. allowing them to downshift, adjust, provide valuable feedback to coaches etc.

I've personally gone through many phases of mixing things together .. but usually in an attempt to find a groove that I want to stick too. I don't like throwing in tons of different training means, it usually stresses me out. Once I find a groove, I like to stick with it - injuries/aches permitting.

Also on the new forum, we could like, star, and tag this post. Likes work as usual. Stars are for things we don't want to forgot. Tags are for eventual searching.

pc!

need to safely get back to 225 x 45+ high rep half squatting, like in 2012.

I put gizmo's juke from ~5 years ago into its own video. it just looks so crazy in regular speed:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKCUy78Kai8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKCUy78Kai8</a>

So what's the point of super high rep squat? Isn't it just endurance training at that point?

Also that juke is soo quick and convincing, that's exactly what I need to be able to do to play O-line next year. My dog usually runs more curve-like patterns (maybe because of higher BW?)

I could never get someone to bite that hard on one step. I guess it has to be extremely quick and the rest of your body really has to look like you committing in order to sell it. No idea how you can step so quickly and also commit your body and still be able to reverse that momentum so quickly in the other direction

Quote from: adarqui on August 22, 2016, 12:45:06 am

need to safely get back to 225 x 45+ high rep half squatting, like in 2012.

I put gizmo's juke from ~5 years ago into its own video. it just looks so crazy in regular speed:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKCUy78Kai8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKCUy78Kai8</a>

So what's the point of super high rep squat? Isn't it just endurance training at that point?

Also that juke is soo quick and convincing, that's exactly what I need to be able to do to play O-line next year. My dog usually runs more curve-like patterns (maybe because of higher BW?)

I could never get someone to bite that hard on one step. I guess it has to be extremely quick and the rest of your body really has to look like you committing in order to sell it. No idea how you can step so quickly and also commit your body and still be able to reverse that momentum so quickly in the other direction

Yeah you will never ever ever be able to juke like that.  None of us will.  But then again that is a dog - it's a million times more explosive and it's on four legs...  Four legged mechanics are completely different - walking and running become two different things...

Humans juke with athletic ability but moreso wizardry (skill) and sleight of body... I was training a 15 year old basketball prospect.   Terrible athlete.  But crazy range.  6'3 145.  Such a good player.  His hesitation and change of direction was incredible - he could fully commit his torso and pull it back and had tons of hands tricks (i.e. Putting his hand on the back of your leg or body to pull by ever so slightly).  The first step ability of a basketball player is hardly a function of athleticism -  it's the second step.   I could guard the kid by shuffling my feet (kind a lock down defender when I wanna be) but every move or change of direction he did made space for him - I just used recovery speed so he couldn't turn the corner... 

So what's the point of super high rep squat? Isn't it just endurance training at that point?

well, in the case of high rep squatting, it's not necessarily just strength endurance -> because you can recover between reps. You can take extra breathes between reps and pump out rep after rep until you pass out. This is much different than say, bench press or curls where you prime movers in the movement can't relax and just hit their limit. So, in that sense, high rep squatting is somewhat more of hypertrophy/strength training than simply strength endurance.

I think one thing that separates strength endurance from high rep strength/hypertrophy work is tempo/rhythm. If every time you perform a high rep set, you perform it NON-STOP using a consistent pace, then after ~15-20+ reps it becomes more of a strength endurance effort. If however, you hit your "burning point" around reps 10-15, and then stand there recovering for several seconds/breathes, and keep pumping out additional reps, I think it falls more into the hypertrophy/strength spectrum. I could be entirely wrong, but, there aren't many people studying performing 10-12RM lifts being performed for ~20+ repetitions. I really think that is a different animal.

with high rep squatting (and potentially RDL and calf raise), you can train at much a lower percentage of 1RM (<= 70%) and just keep cranking out recovery-reps until you are just toast (mentally or physically). A good portion of those reps will have some decent speed, due to the % of 1RM .. so you're getting in some good explosive strength work. The time under tension is just crazy, so that's good for hypertrophy. And the percentage of 1RM isn't low enough (in the proper case: ~70%) to simply be a strength endurance exercise (~40-60%).

High rep lifting, once adapted, can also be done @ high frequency.. It's almost like running 400's every day, but, without the impacts.. It takes longer to get adapted to high frequency high rep lifting than it does high frequency low volume/low rep lifting, but people will adapt nonetheless. The best way to adapt to such a routine is to simply do "one" high rep exercise per day, not multiple sets. ie, you perform several warmup sets, get really loose, then you just bust ass on one work set until you basically pass out.

From personal experience, i've had some impressive gains from high rep lifting. I used to promote "high rep nation" on here, which was high rep squatting. I'd like to take it further and enter the world of high rep calf work, & high rep hamstring work. I've already got high rep quad/glute work covered with the half squatting. I'd love to hit my calves and hamstrings harder.

The type of gains i've gotten from high rep lifting are strength, hypertrophy & power. This is a decent example:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSmq5IopKuo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSmq5IopKuo</a>

That video has more dislikes than likes, lmfao. For obvious reasons: I wasn't going deep, using plates under my heals, and I was touching pins. This video must drive purists crazy.

However, what can't be denied, is how easy i'm moving that weight (226 lb. @ ~154 lb)... and how many reps I hit. At that point in my lifting, I had been doing TONS of high rep squatting.. every day. 225 became a feather. I was just tossing it up like a toy at that time. And I also was getting up nasty on vert, with TONS of max effort attempts during those sessions. My work capacity was ridiculous.

Beyond all of that.. I think experiencing & working through that pain might be a good thing. There's something absolutely brutal but beautiful about heavy high rep lifting. It's a real fight to the death, mentally.

Here's another video, 275 x 21 @ 152 .. but this is more of a max effort high rep squat. You can see how bad it wrecks me. I'm completely toast. I'm surprised I was even able to joke around. Also you can see gizmo (the one with the juke) watching me beast out .. when he was a puppy. So i'm pretty sure he had good role models.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEMYJdxtdGs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEMYJdxtdGs</a>

so ya i have nothing wrong with strength endurance .. but, this is legit strength + hypertrophy + power + strength endurance etc.. it's basically a big evil gumbo of torture.

lmfao @ "skin and bones crew".

Also that juke is soo quick and convincing, that's exactly what I need to be able to do to play O-line next year. My dog usually runs more curve-like patterns (maybe because of higher BW?)

ya my other dog runs curve-like patterns, he's also much beefier. the highest i've seen him jump is probably ~6" lmao... the other one (in the clip) is just a little freak. I've seen him jump ~25+ inches no joke on his best jump.. i mean he absolutely launched. he used to be even more athletic because i took him to the dog park alot .. but i can't take him anymore because he hates big dogs and will attack them if they come near him. He's been roughed up by a few big dogs so, he just goes apeshit when they come to mess with him or sniff him .. really sucks. He used play with the mini greyhounds and rat terriers which was incredible to watch.

I could never get someone to bite that hard on one step. I guess it has to be extremely quick and the rest of your body really has to look like you committing in order to sell it. No idea how you can step so quickly and also commit your body and still be able to reverse that momentum so quickly in the other direction

barry sanders style.......

Quote from: vag on August 22, 2016, 04:50:46 am

Quote from: adarqui on August 16, 2016, 02:00:10 pm

ya 34 now..



i'm now entering 'age vs vertical' territory.. vag

Best age-vs-vertical era is yours, around 35. Old enough to get respect ( not that much deserved tbh, people seem very impressed from 35+yo  jumpers but it ain't that difficult ), young enough to make gains.

Happy bday! 

So true about age.  Awhile I was playing ball and it turned into an impromptu dunk contest and me and a kid were going at it - I could land windmills and he couldn't so I was pretty much the winner... After we were talking and he asked if I was in college (he was 22 - I look young but not that young) and I told him I finished college almost 10 years ago...  He asked me how old I was and I said 31 and he said "OMG!!!! You must have absolutely flown in your younger days!!!"

ha. nice!

I wasn't sure if I should feel insulted... Didn't like being called old but then again... No.  I landed my first windmill cleanly at age 31!  My first legit 45" jumps were at 31... Sure I sprinted faster in my twenties but jump wise I never put it together until I got older...

the 40 @ 40 club sounds pretty exclusive.. you think you are going to try and be in that club come 40's?

Quote from: T0ddday on August 22, 2016, 01:02:57 pm

Quote from: vag on August 22, 2016, 04:50:46 am

Quote from: adarqui on August 16, 2016, 02:00:10 pm

ya 34 now..



i'm now entering 'age vs vertical' territory.. vag

Best age-vs-vertical era is yours, around 35. Old enough to get respect ( not that much deserved tbh, people seem very impressed from 35+yo  jumpers but it ain't that difficult ), young enough to make gains.

Happy bday! 

So true about age.  Awhile I was playing ball and it turned into an impromptu dunk contest and me and a kid were going at it - I could land windmills and he couldn't so I was pretty much the winner... After we were talking and he asked if I was in college (he was 22 - I look young but not that young) and I told him I finished college almost 10 years ago...  He asked me how old I was and I said 31 and he said "OMG!!!! You must have absolutely flown in your younger days!!!"

ha. nice!

Quote

I wasn't sure if I should feel insulted... Didn't like being called old but then again... No.  I landed my first windmill cleanly at age 31!  My first legit 45" jumps were at 31... Sure I sprinted faster in my twenties but jump wise I never put it together until I got older...

the 40 @ 40 club sounds pretty exclusive.. you think you are going to try and be in that club come 40's?

Wow. Never thought about 40/40 but barring any major life change.... Hell yes. 

Think of it like this.  If Kim Collins is running sub 10 at 40 (and running PRs) why the hell cant we jump 40 inches at 40?  I never really think about vertical but me and a friend were talking about dunking until as old as possible, I like 40/40 club though... Sounds cool...

^^^ About your high rep nation advocacy above.  I'm not against your high rep training (though I caution you about doing it for RDLs because of your back - I actually think high rep squats without full ROM like you do are better than high rep full ROM for the same reason).

And as far as your strength endurance argument I partially agree but I think the evidence suggests it's more like this:

Movement efficiency is extremely specific.  Gotta practice jumping high to jump high.  We know that.

Additionally, strength work and weight training is extremely non specific.  It's GPP.  It carries over but with much less specificity... Consider what makes us adapt to weight training...

Well it's load/work/force and intensity.  The first parameter is why we try to make the movement specific to our goal - ie we do explosive low rep squats cause we want to build power for an explosive single jump.  The second parameter is not so specific.  If we do something that absolutely destroys our legs, our body, our mind in the weight room our body WILL adapt.  Something that intense makes your body go into change mode and it builds bigger muscles, muscles more tolerant of work, stronger muscles, everything changes!

This is why IMO it's not the rest between reps that makes high rep squatting useful - it's the intensity that puts you into transformation mode...  I believe this because I have seen athletes make amazing gains with high rep timed band squats (you would love these) where you have to keep tempo and not rest.  I don't know if you have ever done band resisted sprints or high rep squat work but tension on your body has the effect of causing you to not "realize" the fatigue until you stop... After which you can hardly stand...

So, this is why I would answer FPs question to you moreso as:

"Only doing high rep squatting would be for strength endurance".  But your already doing tons of jumping and low rep squatting and other training to provide a stimulus for explosive adaptation - high rep squatting just turns up the dial on the adaption to crazy mode. 

*also really believe lactate has a ton of neural effects.  This is really new research and pretty complicated but looks promising... Getting lactate into our brain without H+ at such high loads (225 is still a lot compared even my body weight) could have so many health and training benefits that traditional strength research doesn't consider...