Author Topic: AGC's journal  (Read 522100 times)

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T0ddday

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Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« Reply #840 on: January 08, 2014, 02:21:54 am »
+1
Same here ^^^

I wonder from a strength standpoint, what is the limiting factor? Calf strength, quad strength, glute strenght? Just overall leg strength?

I guess the calves load a ton on these.

If I had to put a muscle group I would choose hips.  But it is really activation more than strength.

In general while the calves may be used isometrically cueing calves for bounding is about the worst thing you can do.   If you have heard of "hammer and nail" sprinting mechanics this applies 100x for bounding.  If you imagine swinging a hammer you put a lot of force into it when it is far from nail because thats when the moment arm is longest and you can make a bunch of torque... You don't wait till the hammer is touching the nail and then drive the hammer against the nail....

The force has to begin at the hip when you are bounding (sprinting too but it's a lot more subtle) so while you are in the air with the quad parallel to the ground is where you drive down to the ground hardest...  You smash down to the ground there and pop back up after which you have time to hold your pose (or cycle through in sprinting)... What acole is doing (and what you are doing.... sorta) is landing on the front foot THEN applying force at toe off which drives the foot back behind you and doesn't let you reset...  It's subtle difference but it's pretty big.   

Raptor

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Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« Reply #841 on: January 08, 2014, 02:40:42 pm »
0
Yeah I don't know why people "naturally" do that... maybe it's a sign of quad dominance of some sort and when exposed to a hip dominant movement we look like idiots or something?

I've also wondered on the reason why we need to keep the foot dorsiflexed when doing plyo movements (say in high hurdle consecutive jumps).

Basically keeping the foot dorsiflexed takes away the calf's ability to really absorb force excentrically because you don't have that excentric range of motion through which the calf can act to decelerate (help in that particular landing motion). Instead, with a dorsiflexed foot I guess maybe it's more the Achilles and quads that load up?

That's one thing I'd really like to understand.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

AGC

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Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« Reply #842 on: January 08, 2014, 05:37:52 pm »
0
Same here ^^^

I wonder from a strength standpoint, what is the limiting factor? Calf strength, quad strength, glute strenght? Just overall leg strength?

I guess the calves load a ton on these.

If I had to put a muscle group I would choose hips.  But it is really activation more than strength.

In general while the calves may be used isometrically cueing calves for bounding is about the worst thing you can do.   If you have heard of "hammer and nail" sprinting mechanics this applies 100x for bounding.  If you imagine swinging a hammer you put a lot of force into it when it is far from nail because thats when the moment arm is longest and you can make a bunch of torque... You don't wait till the hammer is touching the nail and then drive the hammer against the nail....

The force has to begin at the hip when you are bounding (sprinting too but it's a lot more subtle) so while you are in the air with the quad parallel to the ground is where you drive down to the ground hardest...  You smash down to the ground there and pop back up after which you have time to hold your pose (or cycle through in sprinting)... What acole is doing (and what you are doing.... sorta) is landing on the front foot THEN applying force at toe off which drives the foot back behind you and doesn't let you reset...  It's subtle difference but it's pretty big.

Right, I'm understanding that better now. Thanks, will try and get the next attempts on film.

____________

Track (yesterday):

Dynamic warmup, 800m jog

6x100@70% (all around 15 sec)

6x60m@80% (~8.5sec)

I felt like doing some tempo work to recover from the fairly intensive session the day before. I haven't really done tempo sprints yet. The group doesn't do them unless you're injured or something. But I read in Charlie Francis' book that tempo should be done 1x/week. Hmmm. Anyway, tomorrow I'm gonna try and do some speed endurance and maybe low-intensity jumps. Gonna be a bit tricky to do the usual speed endurance session I was doing at home because of the smaller track. Might do a 200m/60m set rather than 220m/100m.

AGC

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Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« Reply #843 on: January 09, 2014, 11:48:03 am »
0
Track:

Dynamic warmup, 600m jog

2x200m/60m (2min between reps, 10mins between sets) - 26.4, 8.0, 26.9, 8.0

3 DSVJs, 3 SLRVJs

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWw9QnQd_Zs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWw9QnQd_Zs</a>

BW: 78kgs

First time running bends indoors. It's quite tricky actually. I definitely slowed down a bit because the 200s were pretty slow. It is pretty cool though.

I don't know exactly how high the roof was that I was jumping at. Looked around 9.5' maybe? Hard to tell. Someone had put tape up to jump at presumably, nearly hit the top marker.

T0ddday

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Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« Reply #844 on: January 10, 2014, 10:14:07 am »
0
Yeah I don't know why people "naturally" do that... maybe it's a sign of quad dominance of some sort and when exposed to a hip dominant movement we look like idiots or something?

I've also wondered on the reason why we need to keep the foot dorsiflexed when doing plyo movements (say in high hurdle consecutive jumps).

Basically keeping the foot dorsiflexed takes away the calf's ability to really absorb force excentrically because you don't have that excentric range of motion through which the calf can act to decelerate (help in that particular landing motion). Instead, with a dorsiflexed foot I guess maybe it's more the Achilles and quads that load up?

That's one thing I'd really like to understand.

I don't really follow totally your reasoning... nor necessarily agree with the need to keep feet dorsiflexed throughout the movement.  Your feet are going to go between dorsi and plantar flexion throughout the movement (only exception might be ankling but thats low intensity plyo or warmup)... I don't know why you would try to avoid plantar flexion when your will jump higher farther with toe-off at the end of your ground contacts.

The only point of a dorsi-flexion cue IMO is to try to engrain a whole foot landing rather than a toe first landing and I believe you are correct there but I don't think it's a matter of switching force absorbtion from calves to achilles/quads.  It's more just to allow maximum time for acceleration of the foot and to minimize ground contact IMO.   Landing in plantar flexion requires you to either shorten your stride cycle or land in front of your center of gravity when sprinting; additionally if you land on a plantar flexed foot and go through a whole foot plant and then toe off you are spending more time on the ground and thus absorbing more force and returning less force... Avishek and I got into this the other day about the return forces from landings of different heights and how calculating ground reaction force was not extremely simple; what is true though is the longer time you are on the ground the smaller the amount of force transferred from the landing to the next jump/bound/stride.   Accelerating the whole foot into the ground and rapidly reversing will be best here (the toe off is sort of "free" because the center of mass has already accelerated at this point - it's like a booster and also why vertical jump mats don't make sense), of course some of the landing force will be absorbed and not returned which is why when you teach an athlete proper dorsi-flexed bounding technique the first thing that happens to terrible shin splits.   They get over that though. 

T0ddday

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Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« Reply #845 on: January 10, 2014, 10:15:50 am »
0
Track:

Dynamic warmup, 600m jog

2x200m/60m (2min between reps, 10mins between sets) - 26.4, 8.0, 26.9, 8.0

3 DSVJs, 3 SLRVJs


Awesome that you found a indoor facility... Is it a 200m banked track or flat?  Flat 200m tracks are crazy hard to run on.  On a flat indoor 200m, the race is over so fast... but your time is always so slow!

LBSS

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Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« Reply #846 on: January 10, 2014, 10:49:37 am »
0
after we ran those 200s on the flat track at georgetown my left ankle was sore for days.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

Raptor

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Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« Reply #847 on: January 10, 2014, 02:03:25 pm »
0
Well yeah but how do you translate the need for someone to plantar flex everytime they jump?

For example when I try to do consecutive vertical jumps of any kind (to the rim, backboard, over hurdles), I suck so bad at them because I ALWAYS land in a plantar flexed foot position after my first jump and I NEVER recover back. So I basically jump, land in a plantar flexed position, have to stop and reset, jump, land in a plantar flexed position, reset etc.

And it's terrible.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

T0ddday

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Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« Reply #848 on: January 10, 2014, 06:17:10 pm »
+1
Well yeah but how do you translate the need for someone to plantar flex everytime they jump?

For example when I try to do consecutive vertical jumps of any kind (to the rim, backboard, over hurdles), I suck so bad at them because I ALWAYS land in a plantar flexed foot position after my first jump and I NEVER recover back. So I basically jump, land in a plantar flexed position, have to stop and reset, jump, land in a plantar flexed position, reset etc.

And it's terrible.

Can you post a video?

You are talking about a bunch of things that are pretty different.   I was referring to single leg bounds, triple-jump second phase, etc.   In all of these you have both horizontal speed and the other half of your body to propel you up and must learn with practice to attack the ground with the landing foot which itself will result in dorsi flexion.  Because horizontal speed is so great you it will essentially suck otherwise.  You can learn simply by practicing standing still.  Stand on your left foot and jump up, kick your butt and accelerate the left leg to the ground.  Repeat.  Now start chaining them together.   It might take awhile but I have seen pretty uncoordinated people pick it up this way eventually. 

Now, double leg bounding (over hurdles or not) is a bit different because you have much less horizontal speed.  It's also a little foreign for some people to accelerate their legs down together in a double leg bound.  But again it's a learned skill.  You plantar flex when you land because you jump too far.   You can initially start with double legged bounding with your knees locked... all power comes from ankles, arms, a little hip pop.  Should be easy to plantar flex throughout the duration of the rep.    You can then move to bounds where you keep the distance short so that you can get your dorsi-flexion before landing.  It really starts with the whole body... Which is why I hate the emphasis on plantar vs dorsi flexion.   If you watch my double legs bounds at 35 seconds in the video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImXLBmzCRXg&list=TLmaiQP-GpCJLcMA1CmMXJ9B3X8cX2GQ62 ) you will notice that in slow motion when I am descending I load my arms and legs up completely....  Focus on preparing for the next jump while you are still falling, not whether your toes are flexed or pointed... If you prepare for the jump in the air you will naturally flex your toes....   

Finally... Consecutive vertical jumps are a very different beast all together.  Consecutive vertical jumps don't have any horizontal speed to attack the ground with!   Additionally if you are jumping just vertically you can't really attack the ground because your feet are already below your hips.  Remember "attacking the ground" isn't really getting your foot to the ground faster...   That is impossible, once you are airborne you are pulled down by gravity and can't get down any faster, what you can do is move one or both legs in front of your body and accelerate at the hip to swing it under the center of mass....

Thus, If you are trying to achieve short ground contacts on consecutive vertical jumps you will actually land on your toes and your heels will never hit the ground.   If you try to accelerate the hips downward and dorsi-flex you will then fly forward instead of just up on the next jump.  I could be wrong (would LOVE to see a counter-example) but I don't think there exists anybody who is actually so reactive that they can build up height with multiple full effort vertical jumps on a hard surface....  The ground forces from that height that you have to absorb are just too brutal... IMO if you could absorb the force you would be strong enough that you could have jumped higher than that!  This is my experience with depth jumps for sure... I can get higher than my vertical with small boxes 12'', 24'', etc.  But once I try to use boxes that approach my max jump it get's pretty difficult.  Of course a depth drop to jump is much different from a max jump because you don't have to cycle through from extension back to flexion...
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 06:22:52 pm by T0ddday »

AGC

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Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« Reply #849 on: January 13, 2014, 06:35:13 pm »
0
Track:

Dynamic warmup, 600m jog

2x200m/60m (2min between reps, 10mins between sets) - 26.4, 8.0, 26.9, 8.0

3 DSVJs, 3 SLRVJs


Awesome that you found a indoor facility... Is it a 200m banked track or flat?  Flat 200m tracks are crazy hard to run on.  On a flat indoor 200m, the race is over so fast... but your time is always so slow!

It's banked. I found it really awkward at first and had to slow up a bit over them. I think I would go crazy after awhile though just running 60s and 200s with two bends haha.

___________

I've been in Germany the last few days. Didn't train while in Munich but here in Berlin there are so many athletics tracks it's crazy. Unfortunately the closest one was also a football club and fairly restricted to the public. I talked to a janitor there and he said most of the football clubs have tracks as well but because the club trains there you can't really use them as running tracks! Weird. Anyway there was an unused pitch about 100m long so I ran there.

600m jog, dynamic warmup

4x100m (two falling starts, two crouch) at 95%, 5 mins rest between

6 SVJs, 3 DSVJs

UB, core SL squats

BW: ??kgs (hopefully still 78)

Freezing cold, probably about 0degC. It's still warm though for the time of year apparently. I wanted to do some starts/speed stuff but in the end just decided to do some 100m repeats to iron out my technique a bit. Video'd some but I'm kind of just a blur anyway so not that helpful.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWEKUFYHgmg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWEKUFYHgmg</a>

AGC

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Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« Reply #850 on: January 16, 2014, 01:59:13 pm »
0
Track:

Dynamic warmup/800m jog

Starting drills etc.

3x40m block starts

2x60m block starts

UB/core stuff

BW: ??kgs

Pretty good workout. 60s felt decently fast today. I reckon I can get in about 3 more sessions before I fly back. Not looking forward to the flight...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ_WgaBqeDM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ_WgaBqeDM</a>

Raptor

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Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« Reply #851 on: January 16, 2014, 03:20:09 pm »
0
I don't get how people fly... I couldn't stay in that flying cage a few minutes, let alone hours over the ocean...

Does it go into turbulences etc? I'd freak out at these and at the take off were it accelerates. Just thinking about it makes me freak out.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

ian459

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Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« Reply #852 on: January 16, 2014, 04:28:55 pm »
-1
Flying's been proven to be extremely safe. No need for excess worrying.

Raptor

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Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« Reply #853 on: January 17, 2014, 05:59:37 am »
0
This is not about being rational, it's about not being able to cope with all that.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

LBSS

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Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« Reply #854 on: January 17, 2014, 06:17:12 am »
0
Flying's been proven to be extremely safe. No need for excess worrying.

no shit, blu. like raptor said, fear of flying has nothing to do with reason. it's like arachnophobia or claustrophobia or any other phobia.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter