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Quote from: Mutumbo000 on May 16, 2017, 08:44:25 am

You'll be repping 2 plates on the bench in no time

That would be amazing. Seriously dedicating myself to upper body now.

In all seriousness this is closer to the mindset you should take.  Right now you have an over obsessive mindset lower body strength - (eg thinking that you MUST add X kg to your squat etc) and a strange mass-based approach to upper body work. 

From your journal it appears your a basketball player first - your second love is strength training.   For lower body weightlifting realize that your build is highly influential for how much strength you can express - the optimal build for basketball is actually the one that is the worst for both the squat and the benchpress.   This is why it's important for most athletes to use both the squat and a deadlift variation rather than fixate on squatting as much as someone else.   With your build you should focus on getting your squat + deadlift to a reasonable level - 4x bodyweight is pretty great for a basketball player.   After this your should focus on more specific lower body work.

While I don't love the bench press for upper body work at least it's a measurable quantity so I commend your for building it.  I'd rather see you track your heavy pullups, standing press, weighted crunch as a way to measure upper body functional strength - then focus on some challenging mobility/strength exercises - can you do 5 reps of single leg deadlift to overhead press (leg off the ground the whole time, arm in opposite hand) on both legs with 30kg? 

Your comments about upper body strength got me to do some asking about what NBA guys do.  I asked an NBA trainer and it's a lot of heavy core, standing presses (no laying bench press at all) in the offseason and then it's a ton of band and cable work all year long.   I might be guilty of making an appeal to authority fallacy (if the NBA guys do it then it MUST be right) but the thinking for the strength program there is that laying movements like bench press don't involve core/legs which is still the engine driving upper body power - and while standing presses and pulls are an improvement they still involve vertical pressing (because well - gravity) where a basketball player needs horizontal plane work.  It is a compelling argument, albeit one that sounds a bit too over-specific for me - but it could be worth a try.   What I have seen them doing is a lot of work where they have a weighted vest attached to a band which pulls them in a certain direction WHILE the doing upper body band work.   For example.  You are standing at the free throw line with a band pulling you back toward three point line, you have bands in one or both arms.  You have to take a strong plant step against resistance to the top of the circle and the perform a quick standing horizontal press with one arm while remaining strong against the band resistance...  Maybe ridiculous - maybe the secret to rebounding and post strength?     

Quote from: T0ddday on May 08, 2017, 07:41:12 am

Quote from: maxent on May 07, 2017, 12:17:13 am

Quote

Work on a drop step where you don't actually face up completely.  This requires the dunk to have a bit of turn, so it's a drop step spin and the dunk has about a 80 degree spin in it.  This allows you to protect the ball and even use your lead hand to fight off the defender (and even push off slightly for a boost).  If you have a trainer parter it's best to practice w them - practice your spin, gather, protect and push off w your lead arm on their shoulder... hard to get this perfect but when you do you can get truly nasty dunks...

Sounds v. interesting!!! When I practiced a spin into a drop step I found I had to do the spin real slow to get good groove into the plant for a jump. But I will practice what you've described, it seems subtly different from that. I find hte biggest challenge is not breaking the rules (travelling) while setting up for the dunk.

This is exactly why you don't want to do the spin move slow!  If you execute it quickly and get a dunk nobody will notice your traveling...  There is sort of an unwritten rule here that if a short guy drop steps on somebody.... nobody dares call travel...  The only leagues that do are the same ones which will give you a technical foul for dunking - you don't want to play in those leagues anyway...

lol .. ok this is a game changer. does it help or nah if you receive the entry pass into the post into a jump stop in selling the travel. i dont think i pass for short in our leagues very much, sometimes but not often. i think i get none of hte benefit of the doubt from refs for being 'big' tho im usually and probably one of the lightest on the court .. smh. for now..

Well you don't have to be the lightest guy on the court lol.

I think as far as selling the travel a bit - it comes down to personal preference and ability. 

For me I can spin really quickly from left to right - if I take a "crab dribble" and slip in an extra step to rise up and dunk the ball NOBODY notices.   Another easy time to drop step dunk is off a rebound - very hard to see if you actually traveling when you grab the rebound, bounce it once, take a couple steps and dunk.   

I think it's mostly about small spaces.   I have gotten *one* dunk in my life that I can remember in an actual competitive game where I drove past my man from the three point line, accelerated to the hoop and dunked the ball.  It was a day I felt really bouncy and I was in denver (maybe altitude lol?).   Besides, that I just can't get my steps right when I build up that much speed - I often "feel" high enough to dunk but when I actually go for it it's really likely I will do an obvious travel.   The solutions to this are (a) dunk with my left hand and (b) use small spaces to dunk in games - cutting baseline, drop steps, etc.  They allow you to have a step pattern drilled and they allow you to be a little more fast and loose with the traveling rules IMO.   

While I am admitting that what I am advising is almost surely a travel.... and I have been very likely guilty of this crime myself....  I hold out a tiny benefit of the doubt that maybe it's not really.... I mean who is to say when your steps begin on a gather, corralling a rebound, receiving a pass, etc...    It's not just getting away with cheating - it's relying on ambiguity.   On the other hand if you drive by your man down the key and blow by him EVERYONE can see that third step you took to show off and dunk and they will call it....

hey T0ddday, welcome back! thanks for the tips. had gathered the bit about handstand bailing not really being a thing unless you can do an actual handstand from my own trial and error. am following a prescribed program at the moment and fairly happy to give myself over to it so i'm not gonna do front tuck bails for now. the program doesn't call for freestanding handstands yet, so i haven't been practicing them too much, although recently i have started to because of the aforementioned realization.

to answer your first question: training to be able to do basic gymnastics moves: handstand (i know, i know), cartwheels, kip-ups, and eventually more advanced stuff like backflips, flags, aerials, etc.

how you? how is the transition/move going? been training at all?

Awesome!  I don't know what program your following but hopefully it's not one that's too gymnastics centered... the great thing about gymnastics is that if you have accepted that your are not going to make the olympics (pretty reasonable) then save for a few bad habits almost everything works.  For handstand especially anything you can do that will force to you spend more time inverted - handstand push-ups, kick ups, cartwheels, handsprings, etc will be helpful. 

It's my absolute favorite thing to train people in - I've never trained someone t dunk in a day but I have taught front tucks and back tucks in a day!  Here is a video I made for a client who wanted to learn gymnastics - if you make it out to LA before august I can do the same for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJFXfaZsyec&feature=share

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJFXfaZsyec" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJFXfaZsyec</a>

As far as me... I'm still moving.  Starting beginning of august.  Finding a place to live and I am actually finding a place close to a court and an indoor track that I can use for free if I put in 10 hrs a week as a trainer... so yeah I'm gonna be a professor moonlighting as a trainer... stranger things have happened. 

My training has been poor.  I had some injuries and personal problems but I have turned the corner.  I have been traveling a ton.  I found out that while I hate long distance running I actually love long distance walking...  I was worse out of shape around New Years - my current jump was just measured at 36" so it's a loss of close to 10" but enough to do some ugly dunks.  It's up from 31" though!  Crazy thing is that I took so much time off and got up to 230lbs and then ran a 10.94 100m...  guess I am a natural sprinter and not a jumper!   Anyway,  during the transition I will have two months with very little work (June/July) so I fully intend to train as hard as possible and I need y'all for motivation!  It starts now!   Down to a svelte 218 as I write this!

Welcome back! One reason I'm far from a gametime dunk, b/c as a left hand player with a RL plant, im 90% likely to be facing a defender who is well prepared to neutralise my drop stop dunk attempts. So on the right block where I like to post up, if I drop step to the rim unless ive bodied the defender pretty good, it's just easier to slip in a layup or another graceful type move rather than power. OTOH I can spin better on a drive from the left block but then im out of luck for a RL plant with a L finish. lol. Just mix of factors multiply the degree of difficulty. Can 100% your observations on fast break dunks. My spin on the R block is slowwwwwwwww af tho but I can still beat the defender who doesn't know how to defend a good left handed post player which is suprisingly common. I actually have great post presense for an undersized PF. I can score at will on the R block. If the defender is a lot bigger than me then i'm beating him with speed. If he's smaller, im going thru him no probs.

In future i expect two things can help my dunking ability in games. Just being bigger and stronger and overwhelming the defender with power, getting them out of position then drop stepping them. Will be there in 345-15 days 

As far as the drop step goes I'm the same as you (actually opposite RL-RH which is the same) but one advantage I have is that my spin move is much much better on left block so it's a bit more natural... if you LRL and spin better on left block then you truly are the worst of all possible combinations lol.  Ouch.

Two things to work on other than getting a faster spin to avoid the defender completely.

Work on a drop step where you don't actually face up completely.  This requires the dunk to have a bit of turn, so it's a drop step spin and the dunk has about a 80 degree spin in it.  This allows you to protect the ball and even use your lead hand to fight off the defender (and even push off slightly for a boost).  If you have a trainer parter it's best to practice w them - practice your spin, gather, protect and push off w your lead arm on their shoulder... hard to get this perfect but when you do you can get truly nasty dunks...

The other thing to work on (now that I have given up learning opposite plant) is using your non dominant hand...  for you if you can start integrating your right hand you will be shocked how easy you can get right handed dunks on the right baseline... not only is the ball protected but you can dunk w the ball behind your body which is sooooo easy...  it's a world of difference.  You can keep soooo much more speed in your jump because unlike LRR or RLL dunks where you have to dunk the ball "down" to not hit the back rim and miss the dunk you can throw it in at a much flatter angle... I'm no lefty and my father sucks but it's still far easier for me. 

I'm assuming that since you are a natural lefty that like most left handed people you probably have a good degree of ambidextrousness and would take to this well...

It's funny how in game dunking is so opposite of perceived difficulty... people rate my dunks as more difficult and impressive when I do left handed, two handed, or drop step rotating dunks...  when really the first dunk I ever did was two handed and the "easiest" dunk (all alone single handed right hand dunk) is actually still damn hard to pull off....

Quote from: Coges on May 05, 2017, 05:18:02 pm

Cartwheels looking pretty sweet.

Have you tried bailing from a wall based handstand? Much easier and might give you the feedback that you need. Also, I dare say that if you can't hold a freestanding handstand then any bailing is going to look kind of ugly.

good point about not being able to hold a freestanding one. i can, a little bit, but can't really kick into it consistently. think i need to just treat handstand bailing as kicking into a freestanding handstand and then coming out of it under control rather than the weird quasi-cartwheel thing i've been treating it as.

What are you training for? 

Some kind of gymnastics?  It's super fun to integrate into training, as athletic as you are handstands, front tucks and back tucks and gainers are super easy to get in a few months.  I used to mess around with a bunch of tumbling, I still do backtucks and front tucks but gainers and twists are scary and I need to refresh them on forgiving surfaces before attempting them on concrete.  Def good skills to get...

As far as the handstand bails, the problem is that you are not actually doing handstand before you bail...

This can be fixed w two things. 

More time on the wall to figure out the hands.  The balance is in the hands - push harder to go back and release pressure to fall forward... you have to get the feelin in the fingers for this.

For the bail you have to bail AFTER you lose the handstand rather than before.  To do this you need to learn to forward roll out of your handstand.  Start slow w basic hopping forward rolls but you quickly will be able to hold your handstand and fall forward and then as you are losing it tuck your chin to your head and roll out of it. 

To do this right you want to also release your elbows so they bend as you forward roll... this will be hard at first but it's ok.  Initially you won't lower yourself into the forward roll gracefully so it will be more like handstand - fall onto upper back - roll out.  Not pretty but on grass it won't be painful or dangerous as long as you keep your chin tucked...

Quote from: Final Phenom on September 23, 2016, 09:02:30 am

Been a bit over a week since my last post, been really focused on work and training has taken a backseat for a while. For the next 11 days, I've planned out a brief experimental workout phase focused on rehab. Every day I'm going to be doing 3-4 brief 15-25 minute sessions. If I don't complete this phase exactly as scheduled, I will permanently leave this forum.

BLOCK 0 x daily
--Gliding Ham curls
--Adductor Band Pulls

BLOCK 1 x 4/week: 20-25 mins
-Superset x5
--Paloff Press (or anti rotation alternative)
--Side Plank (or oblique alternative)
--Hip Thrust

BLOCK 2 x 4/week: 10-15 mins
-Run with dog: 4x 20-40m Sprints, 4x 20-40m Alt. leg bounds

BLOCK 3 x 3/week: 18-21 mins
-Superset x 5
--Leg Raises
--RDL

BLOCK 4 x 3/week 19-22 mins
--Light stretches x 10 mins
--Light Plyos x 10 mins

BLOCK 5 x 2/week: 15-20 mins
-Superset x 4
--Squats
--Pullups
--Banded Clams

BLOCK 6 x 2/week: 13-16 mins
--BB calf raises
--DB flys
--DB OHP

so complete it exactly as scheduled, at least.... 

i've done stuff like that before.. usually happens when we are completely fed up with ourselves - a lack of commitment. we can become really hard on ourselves, sometimes rightfully so.

i remember distinctly saying i would quit vert training if i couldnt hit ~45" RVJ by some summer - which was a very unrealistic goal in an unrealistic timeline.. it drove me hard, but i also failed that goal.. and it depressed me quite a bit, EVEN THOUGH i knew it was unrealistic. so that was definitely unhealthy..

yours is far more achievable.. THOUGH, I still think you (we) diminish some of our power when we hold some manufactured axe over our heads.. I think if you stuck to that routine without an axe over your head, it would result in an even MORE POWERFUL response.. because it is your will & dedication to consistency that caused you to achieve it.

my 2 cents.

get it!!

pc!!

Really good points.  My two cents:

1) Goals of achievement and goals of dedication are different.  Holding an axe over your head that you will hit 45" is different than the goal to train everyday.  One is a result the other is about work.  Work is better.  Results are non linear and what is once almost unachievable starts to hurt you in the future...  That would put 40" on a pedestal could be why you don't hit 45!

2) goals of quitting are silly.  Go on a trip if u get your goals.  Or don't if you fail.  I prefer positive reinforcement but don't get worse (quit athletics) because you didn't do great!

why not just use a type of paint that can be rubbed off, paint the rim with it or with any sort of ink or coloured liquid and then measure to see how much above the wrist the rim touched. 

You win the prize for most complicated solution to the simplest problem. 

I still maintain that Maxents strange whining and humble bragging about how he can't measure his vert cause he is just soooo damn high is not something we can solve by giving him tools... I think he secretly doesn't want to...

He's been given a billion solutions, wrist, backboard, using his head, recording with his phone and using physics - goddamn his name was entropy 5*(fall time)**2 is a pretty simple way to know your jump height in meters!!

The Kebeya video I posted is literally the highest two footed jumper I have ever witnessed in person.  Higher than anyone by far.  When I'm jumping well I'm in the air for an extra beat - this guy is in the air for an extra two beats... truly nuts.  He measures using his head and the backboard...

As far as vags point... Two things.   Thanks for admitting that just cause you aren't good at something that doesn't make it unathletic... second... interesting that you can't get up on the backboard, I think it's cause u use your left hand...  What I have noticed is this:

1) If I want to be as generous as possible to myself when measuring my two footed running vertical I need to jump on hardwood, w a vertec, LR plant, and left handed touch.  I can get up far far higher like this...

2) However, this is rarely available.  So I can do an alternative.

1) I can jump for the square.  If you notice the video acole posted of me, I do a left handed square touch and a right handed, the left handed is significantly shorter.  That's because when you do LRL you touch w your hand "behind your body" which makes the contact of the backboard a really hindrance ok your jump.  When you jump LRR you touch with your hand reaching up in front of your body and are barely affected. 

But I just said my best jump is LRL but I have to do square jumps LRR.  Ok, so you got me I guess I can't truly do a ME jump for the square... but who cares.  It's about testibility.  The square is 11'4-11'6.  My reach is 7'9.   If I really need to satisfy my ego I can post "hey guys, touched the bottom of the square today which is 44.5 inch jump (43" + 1.5 inch bonus because it's non optimal and I could have touched on object that high w a LRL jump)...

2) Additionally I can measure my vertical w my head.  I bang my head against the backboard.  I have never hit my head on the rim.  I have grazed my hair on it when my fro was pretty big and have seen it on tape.  I know that if I legit hit my head on rim it's 49 inch jump cause I'm just under 6' in shoes.  If I increase my vertical and am fearful of the rim I can always put a foam roller on top and hit that... I tried it but I was a legit 4-5 inches away as it sits on top of the rim and so it was too hard of a target for me to aim for at my jumping level... I would have to improve to even go for it as. Target...

Is head touching optimal?  Not at all.  I have a 7'8.5 reach... if I cheat like people do on a combine it's 7'7.  If I go fairly it's closer to 7'9.  If I truly dislocate my shoulder to stretch as hard as possible with momentum and swing (like I do in the air) it's probably more like 7'11...  I can't really do this with my head... so, again I could give myself a bonus inch or two for any object I touch w my head but that isn't really necessary because the bottom line is:

All you need is measurability!!! IMO the most impressive gains on the board belong to KF and LBSS.  Two dudes who do not fuck around when it comes to measurability.

KF doesn't even mess around with anything but standing vertical jumps cause there is too much variation and risk. Sure he dunks but only cause he thinks it looks cool.  He makes no claims from dunks but just does standing vertical jumps to a vertec on hardwood and posts clear video.  He doesn't say "hey guys how high did I get up?  He says that's a 38" inch jump.  He gets feedback for how big he jumps in repeatable testable way.

LBSS posts look like: 15 ME jumps, best 37", worst 32, mean 35, variance 3", coefficient of variation of 0.2, Cauchy distributed, moment generating function estimates gamma.

This is good data!  LBSS can take this data and know when he jumps well, poorly, etc. 

This is the sad thing about maxent being afraid to test his vertical... in the end all the excuses hold him back.   This is a jumping board, not a squatting board.  Jumping workout data would allow him to train 100x better even if it's just off by a consistent two inches cause he is doing an absolutely unathletic maneuver like touching the square!

Lol at acole.  Yeah touching the backboard is a completely unathletic movement... Did you see that horribly unathletic movement that lebron did in the finals where he chased the ball down and pinned it against the backboard... useless move.  Wonder if he can do something athletic like grab a suction cup?

The chase down block.  Robbing a home run.  Jumping near a wall is just not an athletic manuever...

Not to maxent.  Just like your foray into bounding... just cause you suck at something or feel awkward at it that doesnt make the movement completely unathletic and useless... it makes you unathletic...

Your excuses simply don't make sense...  you have a harder time touching the backboard cause of your longer arms???  Actually it's harder w short arms, watch my last jump, I have to lean my head back to not hit it on the backboard - the longer your arms the less you have to do that...

Speaking of... why not hit your head on the backboard.  Most are around 1 ft at most.  That's a 33 inch vertical.  Measure it.  Seriously taking a data point from a guy who gave you a 36 inch vertical by sight????

Ok are you joking? Vertical isn't some hard to quantify trait that you need to trust an expert eye on. Hit your head on backboard.  Hit your head on rim.  Invest in a tape measure.  Use your camera to time it and convert to find your jump... a million ways yet your don't do it...

Cause once you do it it counts... stop basking in the glory of maybe 36" and just make a measurement... I get what your doing... I did it when I unretired from sprinting... avoiding meets and getting data about my speed from things like "stronger than before in weight room... I practiced w a 10.2 guy and hung w him, coaches say I look like a 10.4...

This is all BS.  Comforting but dishonest...