Adarq.org

See, it's those strong hip flexors that in large part set the hips in a way that gives the illusion of lordosis/anterior pelvic tilt characteristic in athletes like sprinters.

Is the lordosis an illusion or is it real?

A comparison of actual and apparent lumbar lordosis in black and white adult females.
Mosner EA, Bryan JM, Stull MA, Shippee R.

U.S. Army-Baylor University Graduate Program, Academy of Health Sciences, Fort Sam Houston, Texas.

Abstract
The purposes of this study were to investigate differences in lumbar lordosis in black and white adult females and to explain the clinical impression that blacks have a greater lordosis than whites. An actual lumbosacral lordosis angle (ALS) was measured from a standing right lateral lumbosacral radiograph using the angle formed from the intersection of lines drawn across the top of the second lumbar vertebral body (L2) and across the top of the sacrum. An actual lumbo-lumbar angle (ALL) was measured in the same manner, except the second line was drawn across the bottom of the fifth vertebral body (L5). To determine whether gluteal prominence gives a false impression of increased lumbar lordosis, an apparent lordosis (APL) measurement was taken, measuring the distance from the subject's greater trochanter to the most posterior aspect of the buttocks. No significant differences were found in ALS or ALL between 25 black and 27 white adult female subjects (ALS, P = 0.26; ALL, P = 0.41). Significant differences were found between black and white APL, with blacks demonstrating a larger APL than whites (P less than 0.01). A high correlation was noted between ALS and ALL in both blacks (0.70, P less than 0.01) and whites (0.77, P less than 0.01). The investigators therefore contend that the clinician's assumption that blacks have a greater lordosis than whites is based on an apparent increased lordosis due to more prominent buttocks (APL).

Also there's some interesting reading here ont he subject of anthopometrics and posture for different sports if you scroll down and read pages 8-12:

http://books.google.com/books?id=2oh18I2TRIUC&dq=science+and+medicine+in+sport&pg=PP1&ots=Ka-E897YdD&source=citation&sig=JyBiCF4BizRtggq7F3wJ_npmR9o&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?q=Science+and+medicine+in+sport+&btnG=Search&hl=en&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=1&cad=bottom-3results#v=onepage&q&f=false

IMO their main importance is from a postural perspective and femoral control. Basically if the hip flexors are weak the glutes can't do their job becuase the hips aren't set in a way that primes the glutes optimally and the TFL tends to take over in hip flexion.  It's common in people with a naturally flat ass. Strengthen their hip flexors and all the sudden the posture of the hips changes and the glutes are more easily engaged. The relative size and strength of the psoas in black people is significantly greater than whites.

It's interesting if these are the only limiting factors or is the neurochemistry worse with age (and with age I mean 30 to 40 years old) "much" worse than in the 20-30s (by that I mean the speed of the signal and it's intensity towards the muscles).

Do you have the same "rage" and "ferociousness" when jumping (if you weren't limited by the bones/joints etc) as in the past? The same "rate coding" if you will?

Raptor,

I have lost very little of that.  In fact I was running sprints a few weeks ago and my 10 and 20 yard sprints were about as fast as ever.  The main thing I notice with the age is a loss of testosterone which leads to a loss of muscle mass which leads to some loss of power in some muscle groups. That and now it takes forever to warm up and get the blood flowing.  My body comp and strength aren't quite what they were even under the same training and diet. I used to have veins everywhere and stayed ripped to shreds now I look like a normal untrained thin guy.

Regarding the reactive squats, I never did them deep but did go up to around 40-50% with them. They're the one exercise I felt like I tore myself up on acutely.  I like regular jump squats both with pauses and without I just don't think there are many advantages to rapid loaded eccentrics into a squatting position with any type of load.  If you keep them light and pay strict attention to form you'll probably be alright though.   Front squats made my quads grow so fast they got tighter than a drum and I wasn't doing enough quad stretching and that seemed to promote tendonitis - they definitely worked though.

Naa haven't assessed it in ages.  I haven't been able to jump maximally in quite a while.  My knees won't let me do it.  I can do submax jumps once I get really warmed up and can still get the rim pretty easy on a nice smooth submax jump but anytime I apply much force to see what I can really do my joints don't tolerate it and I spend the next few days paying for it 

U must, however keep in mind that you're talking about standing VJ..

That's why you just add some plyos. The only primary difference between the standing bilateral vert and running are the activity of the plantar flexors and eccentric contraction in the plant that occurs in the quadriceps, both of which can easily be addressed thru an exercise like depth jumps.   The olifts also do a helluva job of potentiating the plyos which is why I like to have people do a set of plyos in between sets of the o-lifts.

Just saw this thread and thought I'd throw out a comment. IMO a lot of the debate is over interpretations in the definition of what is a half squat vs full squat.  For me a full squat is legal powerlifting depth...at parallel or just below. Olympic lifters have their own definition of squats.   I've never recommended full ATG olympic style squats unless people just like doing them.

I'm pretty sure James Smith is referring to the same thing in what he calls a half squat.

I could live with that squat for anyone. That squat Jarron Gilbert did I'd consider that a good squat.

The thing is I know from experience when the average bro gets in the squat rack he tends to perceive things differently than what is really taking place.  For most people a "full squat" is what an olympic lifter would call a half squat and going even to parallel is against the natural tendency of most people.   I've been in enough high school  and college weight rooms, gyms and I've seen enough video of people misinterpreting things that I would never tell anyone to do a half squat, especially on the internet.   Because I know without fail most will be doing something resembling a 1/8 squat without about 100 more pounds than they can safely  handle and at worst tear their back to hell and at best get little benefit from the exercise.    Just a couple of weeks ago I saw a bro load up about 405 lbs on the squat rack when he was capable of doing maybe half that correctly.  I turned away for a few moments before hearing a loud CRASH as the weight crushed him to the pins.  That's not an uncommon occurence at all. 

Some of you that follow me know I don't try to jam the O-lifts down peoples throat but done correctly the hang snatch (or clean) is surely an easy way to self monitor and increase RFD and strength speed specific to the VJ over time:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/236664/Canavan-et-al-1996-Kinematic-and-Kinetic-relationships-between-an-olympic-style-lift-and-the-vertical-jump

A friend of mine did some research on a masters thesis several years back and the high hang snatch actually came out ahead of the depth jump and loaded jump squat as far as EMG specifity to the VJ.   

I like the hang versions of the snatch and clean. Not that they're necessary, but they're relatively easy to learn, easy to implement, and also provide a great potentiation exercise. The best thing about them compared to a jump squat is they're much easier (and I think funner) to monitor than a jump squat because the weight's either getting heavier or it's not...you have something more tangible to shoot for.  They also help sports specific upper body strength as it relates to rebounding and such.   I like to have people alternate a set of O lifts with a set of plyometric variation like  depth jumps, tuck jumps, etc. 

Want a simple formula to shoot for as it relates to gains on the lifts for overall athletic success?  Add your bench press, midstance legal squat, hang snatch, and hang clean together then divide by your bodyweight.  The number to shoot for is 6.  If you can hit that chances are you're gonna be one explosive m'fer.  I learned that formula from a throwers coach years ago.  His wife IIRC was a bobsled competitor and former college basketball player.  Acording to my notes here he said that in college basketball she ran her butt off for 4 years and ran a 5.1 40 at 208lbs when she left basketball. Two years of weight training later she weighed 212 and ran a 4.7 and improved her vertical 6 inches without running or jumping in training.

In 1985 her bodyweight to strength ratio on the 4 lifts was just below 3.00. In 1987 it rose to 5.33 and she became a different athlete.

I had a guy a few years back really dedicate himself to that formula after I discussed it with him.  His main focus was getting bigger and more muscular the explosive gains were secondary.  I trained him for a while and got him started and he kinda took things on his own with occassional input from me and over a span of a couple of years went from 155 to 190 lbs and increased his vert from the mid 20's up to 39 inches and all he really did was throw in some depth jumps occassionally.

Because I feel like I've kinda maxed up neurally for the amount of muscle I have right now. So I need more muscle and then further on, less fat (a lot less fat if I want to jump well, especially off one leg). Obviously at my strength levels and time spent with strength work (which has been pretty solid in the last years though) I can't really have maxed out neurally, but I just feel the need for more hypertrophy for a while, and then switch to lower rep schemes to improve neurally on that added muscle (strength work).

I want more posterior chain muscle specifically. Maybe I should go with more reps in my assistance exercises and keep the reps kind of low in the squats? Like for lunges/one-leg RDLs etc go for 8-12, and for squats go with 3x8 and 3x5?

Raptor, it sounds to me here like you have conflicting goals. You want to get bigger, but you also want to get leaner. I hope you're not planning on trying to do that simultaneously because eating to get leaner while lifting to get bigger won't do much for you in the hypertrophy department. Glute and hamstring mass is relatively easy to come by in comparison to overall quadricep mass, it's just that most people don't do direct glute work.  The hardest muscle to significantly hypertrophy (in terms of effort, fatigue, and overall tonnage) is the vastus medialis/lower quad region, especially for ectomorphs and long legged individuals.  Make sure you throw in some direct glute work in the form of manual reverse hypers or barbell hip thrusts for your assistance exercises and that'll take care of your glutes.  Same for hamstrings in the form of glute hams or even leg curls.