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Quote from: undoubtable on June 08, 2016, 02:59:21 pm

Just to play the devils advocate here, sports are usually a highly emotional setting. People identify so much with the teams and players they support that it can bring out the best and also the worst of emotion. I think for this reason I think the dynamics that come into people love/ hating players and teams are a bit more complex.

For example, I was cheering for the Raptors in the Eastern conference final and Kyle Lowry who I've been a huge fan of since he played for Nova. Quick to rage and emotion I was the biggest Lebron basher calling him out for traveling and being a talentless ball of athleticism. Flash forward to the finals and the bet I have outstanding (likely to lose now) and I feel completely different toward Lebron and am totally sympathetic toward him. I see him as totally human with his vulnerabilities instead of this unmovable force my team couldn't get past. This is completely selfish I understand that but I do think that's the reason why sports move us.

We get caught up and like you guys mentioned, think athletes owe it to us to compete and act a certain way. So my point being that when it comes to sports, things aren't as black and white as they may seem because people get so emotionally caught up.

I get that and if you read my post you will see that I list overzealous Kobe and MJ fans as guilty of repeating racist arguments against LBJ out of their zealous fandom rather than any actual feeling about LBJ.   

I don't have a problem that you are a Kyle Lowry fan and want him to get past LBJ.  But I don't think that excuses you from having some responsibility not to perpetuate racist arguments...  Sports are emotional but as athletes and fans we need to "keep it on the court".  When your playing sports - especially football you obviously become heated at your opponent because he is cracking you.  But you keep it between the lines and you are not excused when you punch him in the face in the tunnel after the game.  Same for you as a fan - if while you cheer for Lowry you claim that Lebron is getting too many calls or getting away with traveling... That's fine.  Even if you are wrong.  BUT when you are calling him a monkey or saying he isn't loyal or he a traitor cause he left Cleveland then you are being racist...  EVEN if your only saying these things in the moment and it's a product of your support for Lowry it doesn't matter.  If Kyle Lowry is a decent guy he wouldn't want you as a fan if that's what being a fan does to you.  If being fan gets you so emotional that you start repeating racist arguments then you don't need to be a fan and you are not excused in my book...

In general though I usually don't find guys like you to perpetuate the racist arguments about LBJ - by guy like you I mean people whose argument against LBJ is something like "God LBJ sucks and he gets too many calls, I hope they start calling travel on him and my Raptors can advance finally".   It's the people that are self described "Lebron haters" rather than fans of the Raptors or Warriors or some other opponent of the Cavs that usually are repeating the worst of it...  It's the people from the midwest that you meet in the airport while your watching a game and strike up a conversation with that you realize are just a fan of whoever is opposing Lebron where the light goes off in your head that says "oooooooh your a racist".

Just to clarify T0ddday, I didn't mean that because sports are emotional, racism in sports is acceptable or violence or any of the such. I want to separate my argument to just include fans that are overzealous and will "hate on" a player with the influence of a Lebron. I was just focusing on the difference between "hating on someone" because your are emotionally caught up in the raw emotion of sport from actual blind hatred that racism would be qualified under. My argument was that in regard to Lebron, he probably gets "hated on" a great deal because people naturally have insecurities that are perputated by being a fan. I don't think that is healthy or right, but I do think it is vastly different from racism. I think you'd find a lot of people that "hate on" Lebron would be super excited to see him and take a picture with him in real life.

Quote from: undoubtable on June 03, 2016, 12:09:14 pm

Lol, the friend I made a bet with has been on me all day, already celebrating. I still think this series is up in the air and it's just a matter of making adjustments. Lue has to neutralize that second unit however he can. Play through Mozgov, slow the game down, maybe move JR to second unit to get more opportunities. He has to do whatever he can not to have them go on a run like they did that 3rd quarter. The game was pretty much won there.

GSW looked great but I'm still optimistic. I thought Kyrie looked really good, he just has to hit more shots. I think these finals are his chance to really blow up. But with him and Lebron being able to get to the basket like they do and also having good shooters on the perimeter to kick out to, I think CLE is still in this. I dunno maybe I'm wishing them to victory but they played GSW to 6 games last year relying completely on Lebron isos and 110% defensive intensity. They need that back, their defense was in let's see what you can do mode last night.

ya but there's one thing that has changed considerably since last year -> GSW knows exactly who they are and their confidence is through the roof. GSW is the same team, but 100% confident in how they play together. CLE is a completely different team now that they have Kyree/Love back.

Hero ball might actually be an answer for CLE AWAY from home.. Hero ball between Lebron and someone else who is hot (ideally, Kyree). At home I think they will click alot better, they demonstrated that in the TOR series. Kevin Love isn't a killer on the road. So if anything, Lue might want to try some major 'style changes' away from home; Lebron will probably need to be way more aggressive on the road, is my major point. When CLE is away, he drives and kicks it out to open shooters who brick shots.. At home, they hit alot of those shots. So maybe we need to see the 35 ppg Lebron (from last year) @ GSW.

finally.. Kerr is just one of the best (if not the best) coach in the NBA. That's such a major factor in this series.

pC

Damn great point about identity. It hurt the Cavs that they treated themselves as equals last night and they took on that lets go basket for basket mentality as long we keep the ball out of Stephs and klays hands. They have to change the way they approach the game for sure, especially away from home like you mentioned. Lebron just going nuts isn't a bad approach. It'll be interesting to see what they do. 

This convo reminds me of the time my college dorm mates decided to make an intramural bball team. They asked the one black kid on the floor to play. He happened to be to be super jacked and athletic looking as well. Then one kid (white) but sort of unfit looking turns to me and says it's funny how they don't ask me if I play because I'm fat but I played for my HS team, etc. I went to the one game and the black kid had not the slightest idea how to play lol, he was horrible.

Anyway, point being you don't want to stereotype and place expectations on people because it hurts individuals plus society as a whole. I imagine plenty of black kids who aren't super athletic drop sports they would otherwise enjoy because of that expectation that they have to be great and super athletic. Also, think of how many black kids might question themselves going into a field like science, engineering, etc, bc that's not who they're "supposed to be." It sucks to put those expectations and insecurities on young kids. Plus society misses out on talent across many disciplines. This goes for all races, ethnicities etc.

Anyway on an even broader scale, this issue leads me to political correctness and how it's a very big positive for society in my opinion. If you've noticed on this board, LBSS especially, will quickly correct anyone who makes racist, sexist, or other hateful remarks. I think that's such a great thing, to make people question their thoughts and beliefs. I think it's so easy to be hateful and judgmental especially with topics that we are unfamiliar with. Even a year ago, I remember being so spiteful toward the Jenner transgender case and toward the issue of transgender people in general thinking things like this a stunt, total publicity and questioning transgender being a real thing. Man after reading about the reality of it and seeing crazy statistics like attempted suicide rates among the transgender community and the extent of their suffering I felt so crappy and ignorant.

But the reality is that we all have hateful thoughts and moments and we direct it toward specific traits like race. But as long we make the effort to question those feelings and even go the extra and teach others to do the same, I think we're improving ourselves and society for future generations. That's why I'm really against Trump and his blatant egoism and spilling out hatred unapologetically. I feel like he's giving people the worst possible route. It's just so much easier to say yes I hate so and so and I don't care anymore, it's their fault such and such is happening. It kind of gives a sense of relief that someone has these same feelings as us and they're expressing them loudly and with pride. Ughhh decades of progress down the drain potentially.

I was watching a post game interview (Raptors series) where reporters asked LeBron why he doesn't get back at people when he's hit hard and if it might come to that and he responded with the Jay Z quote “If I shoot you, I’m brainless. But if you shoot me, you’re famous”.

On one end I was thinking this is a smart, quick witted dude but it does show some level of cockiness. He was talking about Biyombo most likely but I just think that's making a bit much of yourself. In anything you do, you want to show respect for the people you compete with even if you are among the best. But you guys are definitely right, MJ and Kobe were no better. I'm split on Lebron with things I admire and things I don't.

http://thesource.com/2016/05/22/lebron-james-quotes-jay-zs-streets-is-watching-in-response-to-questions-about-fouling-in-game-3/


Not everyone can be Tim Duncan level of class...

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/04/thunder-steven-adams-tim-duncan-nice-guy-story

GSW 2nd unit going nuts now. Barbosa and verajao bringing all that energy great stuff.

GSW looks to be in good shape. Just keep it close here and a good burst of energy from that 2nd unit could give them the lead in the 4th. Haven't seen Barbosa at all though I always liked his energy.

Just my thoughts on playoffs since I'm up late and not working tomorrow:

Tor/ Cle - my initial feelings on this series was Cle in 6 but like most people I was fearing a sweep after the first two games. Great work by Lowrie and Derozan and of course Biyombo for making it a series. I love their attitudes plus Corey Joseph is a stud and competitor. It just seems like Cle is too deep for the Raptors but I'm proud of their work and I think they'll give it a 100% again in Toronto and hopefully push a game 7.

GSW/ OKC - wtf, can't believe it, honestly thought GSW would get it done in no more than 6 games. I've only watched bits and pieces of this series but I just can't help to think Kerr needs to step up and make the right adjustments.

In my mind, you have your trio of curry, klay, and draymond who you have to put in a position to match the production of Westbrook, Durant and Ibaka. That's not happening as OKC trio (duo primarily) is out producing GSW trio.

 Also, Steven Adams is dominating and looks like a top 10 center! So make the adjustment to have Ezeli cancel out his production and have bogut match up against Kanter. I think GSW is very capable at the very least of coming out neutral in those two battles and trying to win through the third factor - 2nd unit who is much stronger than OKCs. That's one of their biggest strength as a squad. A second unit that cannot build big leads.

So stratigically, they should be able to matchup. It just seems like Kerr is playing a lot in the way they won last year and not trying to adjust to what they're facing this series. I dunno he's
Coach of the Year and did well to turn the Cle series last year so let's see. I still give GSW a 50-50 chance. Maybe it's the superstar factor with Westbrook and Durant but you have superstars of your own so I'm not sure. Curry needs to come into his own.

On another note, Westbrook is a super freak! I don't understand how this guy can go 100% every play night in and night out. Not quite sure how his CNS can repeat such a high level of intensity not to mention his body keeping up with it. I love the guy but I'm also a bit worried that it has to balance out at some point and I fear although really hope it doesn't affect his longevity in the league. A Rafael Nadal comparison comes to mind.