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so your single broad jump is well over 10 feet? strange to me that your DLRVJ would be so close to mine, given how much more powerful and springy you are.

- No, my best standing broad jump is barely over 10 feet. When I do four consecutive I am essentially cheating, because I start with my toes behind the line, and then jump and stick the landing.  The I reset and I jump again without bringing my toes back to where my heels are on the ground.   If I actually measured out a broad jump toes to heal and repeated it four times it would have to be an amazing day for me to hit 40 feet.   I measure them the way I do because it provides a better way to compare to 4 double leg bounds, cause obviously you have to take off where you land when bounding. 

- Yeah, I don't why I can't get any height from my approach jump.  I'll try and get some videos up soon of some approach jumps and maybe you can tell me what I am doing wrong.

Quote from: T0ddday on August 01, 2012, 01:40:02 pm

Quote from: LBSS on July 31, 2012, 10:13:33 pm

- triple broad jump

- DL bound x 3,3
not as far as triple broad jump, although i'm sure that's because i'm pretty good at pulling my feet forward and stabilizing if i don't have to rebound.

Do you know the measurements and differences between the two?  

Your RDLVJ is much greater than your standing right?  

not exactly. it was the first time i'd tried it and kind of a whim. the difference between the first set of bounds and the second was pretty dramatic, too, for what that's worth. if i had to guess, i'd say the 3 x broad jump was about 26.5 feet, and the second set of bounds was about 24.5 feet. will actually measure next time. also, my single broad jump PR is something like 9'2.

DLRVJ is 5-8 inches higher than SVJ. DLRVJ is more variable. i think SVJ is about 25 unless i'm extremely amped or extremely tired, but recent DLRVJ varies from 30-33 workout to workout. when i'm in a better groove with it, as i was in may, it's more like 32-35. all-time PR is about 35.

Yeah I thought I remember you gaining huge out of an approach.  8 inches in amazing.

Since it's the first time trying bounding... you might improve a lot with practice then and you will soon bound farther than muli broad jump.  Last time I tested on the vertec I was stuck at 35 SVJ, 36 RVJ, still really frustrating.  I do 4xbroad jump and go just over 40 feet, but when I bound I always get 2 feet farther, or 3 feet farther if I depth drop into the first bound.  For some reason I seem to score reactive on multiple jumping tests but can't seem to get what you can out of a running vertical jump...  Maybe I just hate the carpet where the vertect is and the results would be different if I could test on grass or track! 

Yeah but how is it possible to have such a slow pulse etc? If I get out of the bed in the morning my heartrate goes to 80-90, I bet this.

That's crazy, I don't lift daily but when training 5-6 days per week (track/weights) my pulse drops below 50 and my diastolic is extremely low.  Never get systolic lower than 100.  Frequent medium intensity weight lifting or track work might not cover you in sweat the way endurance work does, but as far as your heart is concerned it's just as good or better form cardio, it just won't build up your aerobic capacity or lactate threshold, to which is some attention must be paid if you want to run much longer than 80 meters or compete at any aerobic activity.    

-> note thats my resting pulse which is below 50... not my pulse while training, realized it read like that and don't want to be misleading!

That looks like a great program. I might steal it after I've gotten sick of mine! It looks like a lot of volume for someone not experienced in track work though (note: I am not calling LBSS a novice  ). 

Thanks a lot.  Don't forget that the program advises you only to do 3-4 of the bounding sessions.  The program is actually adopted from an offseason workout for sprinters!  All the running except the 60m sprints should extensive tempo and should actually function primarily as recovery (although it might take a bit of getting used to if you don't have any track background).

I'm wondering though why you don't think things like hip thrusts and BSS are important? I have added BSS and have increased weight every week (I was very weak in this to start). I can't see how that isn't measured progress. Especially since LBSS is a DL jumper; also Joel Smith has talked about how good hip thrusts can be (http://justflyperformance.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/real-world-validation-of-hip-thrusts.html). You'd know better than me of course, I just interested for my own training.

It's not that I don't think hip thrusts, BSS, etc. have a place in training.  And it's not that it's completely unmeasurable, but it's just simply less measurable.  For example what's your max hip thrust and your max BSS?  After doing that max hip-thrust, dont you always feel like you could do one more?  I think one point that Steven-Miller does an EXCELLENT job hammering home is that all athletes (especially those who train alone or outside of a structured college-level program) should spend more time working on the most measurable strength increases.

I read over the link you posted and while I am a bit skeptical of some of the gains (slashing a second off multiple 200m college sprinters 200m times is the difference between an average an all-american athlete), the article actually supports my point that hip thrusts do not have the same place in part of a training program as squats.

Hip thrusts are primarily a glute-activation exercise.  As the article states, an athlete with poor glute activation can make incredible gains by adding hip thrusts to their program.  This gain doesn't necessarily come from adding X amount of pounds to the hip thrust but simply by adding them to the program and increasing weight to keep difficulty moderate.  By contrast squats are an overall strength exercise... Adding weight to your squat will pay dividends.  Also remember that I include backward overhead shot throws in my training program.  These are an EXCELLENT overall strength exercise requires glute and hip activation and provide a very measurable test of ability. 

Basically, my recommendation is that you structure your training by focusing primarily on the measurable quantity you are tested on (ie. your 100m sprint if you are a sprinter, long jump, or your vertical jump, etc.). 

After that your focus should be on your long term measurable tests of explosive strength (bounding, shot throws, power snatch/clean) and tests of maximal strength (squat variations, deadlift, push press, etc.).   You have to approach these lifts with the approach to get stronger and stronger as time passes.    Then your assistance movements and specific mobility work should come when needed, but the mindset required to approach these lifts cannot and should not be the same.  These might provide actually provide greater bang for your buck (ie 8 weeks of hip thrusts might help more than 8 weeks of squat in the short term, but in the long term the advantage will not be as great).  It's not that I think calf raises, hip thrusts, BSS, lunges, etc. are useless... It's just that they should occupy a different mindset as far as programming them into your training and performing them as part of training. 

lol, no I've never heard of the spiraling technique.  I read the link, and I think there could be come truth to it, seeing how the lats are fricken huge in general, and crosses much of the body.  From a shoulder health perspective it sounds good too, because the shoulder is the most stable in internal rotation + extension, and external rotation + flexion.  Maybe I'll give it a try.

I didn't bother to go back and look at vendetta's posts on the forum, but I think he's also the JC  Cooper guy on elitetrack.com.  I believe when he was talking about rotation, he was talking about the spinal engine theory, and how the spine and hip rotates/oscillates to create force for the legs or something.   Personally, I never really bought into it.  However, I can sorta see how this "spiraling technique" is connected to the spinal engine vendetta/cooper brought up often.


Yeah, just watched that combine video.  He has almost no shoulder movement lol.  Maybe because he's like 5ft 4ish?  That's pretty short for a sprinter(and football player).  Maybe it's due to shorter strides, so his turnover might be faster?  I'm not really an expert on this.

I'm also surprised he's hunched over.  He's not even close to 6ft lol.  Honestly I don't know why, but many football guys hunch over during the 40.

Yeah interesting video.  Does seem to have an exaggerated lean in his drive phase.  The short arm carry reminds me a bit of jessie owens:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1XclGwJY8s

(believe thats a 10.1 in the 1930s.  Goddamn.  A half second faster than me in powerweb shorts and 120$ spikes in the 21st century and he is running on dirt and without blocks.  Ridiculous)

As for Holliday, I'd say he had some strange combine specific coaching... (again doesn't make a huge difference).  I will say he runs a lot cleaner on that in his open 100m:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yjwnZx-_BY

Gymnastics is a great sport.  I spent a summer training gymnastics athletes awhile back (even learned this cool trick - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saN9GvUaiFs ), and I was actually surprised by what I thought was rather poor sprinting and jumping performance.  I had figured that their ridiculous strength to bodyweight ratios would have them jumping higher and running faster but I guess it was a lesson in specificity.  

That's unfortunate about the jumps coach.  Do you live in the USA?  The nice thing (for trainees, not athletes!) about track and field is that there really isn't a bunch of money in the sport and as such all but the very elite have to make a living after track... so it's often easy to find a really superb coach in many colleges and track clubs.  I do live in one of the best cities in the country for track and field, but I imagine if you live in a major city you might be able to find a track club who either has or could hook you up with a jumps coach.  Here in LA I see Mike Powell training athletes twice a week at UCLA.  Of course, he charges something 400.00 per session... but it's not much to pay for the best long jumper in the history of the world ( I imagine michael jordan would cost a bit more).  

As far as your program... The focus on SL jumping is basically how I would respond if someone about 5'10 or taller came to me and said I need to dunk a basketball as soon as humanely possible.  Of course my background is mostly training track athletes who have pretty decent movement efficiency already... but if that WAS the case I would focus almost strictly on single leg jumping and would not have the athlete squatting or gaining weight like Steven recommended.  

However if you goals are slightly more long term and general (sounds like they are because you say you want to dunk off two feet) then I would agree more strongly with Stevens recommendation that it's in your best interest to become overall MUCH stronger even if you gain a bit of bodyweight in the process.  As far as the template you have written out... You might be a really detail oriented person and able to follow that to a tee (but I sure couldn't and most athletes couldn't...) but I would recommend something much much much simpler which focuses a much more on progress-measurable compound lifts and measurable jumps.   Basically I would keep the non measurable stuff to part of the warmup or include it in a circuit toward the end of your training, unless it's specifically intended to bring up an obvious issue.

I don't want to beat up your template too much but I would recommend something like this, develop a measurable jumping/running/track workout where you do dynamic warmup/strides before bounding and bounding before sprinting.  For example:

*** Track Workout ***

1) Dynamic Warmup, Leg swings, Fast leg, Skips, Strides
2) 10 Measured overhead backward shot tosses (16lbs, aim to get better at these every workout, do these on a field where you can measure your throw, more than 13 yards is required, getting close to 15 yards is good, close to 17 is very very good).

- Bounding/ Jumping ( choose about 3 of them and also include the running SL vertical jump and REALLY focus on improvement) -

1) 3-6 standing broad jumps
2) 3-6 Depth broad jumps (should go a lot farther on these)
3) 2-3 4 double leg bounds, 8 DL leg bounds (again measure these, hopefully you 4 DL bound is better than 4X standing broad jump)
4) Measured Single leg bounds** (ie LLLL or RRRR)
5) Measured Standing Triple jumps**
6) Running SL vertical jump (3 step, 6 step)
 
- Running -

1) 3-4 Full effort measured 60m sprints (Hand time will suffice as long as you have a buddy who can provide somewhat repeatable times)
2) Tempo Work (If necessary for fat loss, skip if you do weights following track work)

** Either do these full intensity and try to progress OR if you don't feel like you have the hang of it (ie you go less than 10 yards, or you don't get a full cycle in each leg or can't coordinate the arm swing... Then include them as part of the warmup and drill the form until you have it)

**** Weights/Gym Workout ****

1) Warmup
2) Powerclean or Powersnatch -> work up to a challenging weight for a couple triples
3) Squat.   Work up to a challenging but not max single.  Do 2-3 sets of 3-5 with 80% of this.
4) Standing Push Press
5) Deadlifts (Optional)
6) Circuit (Here is where you can do RDLs, Calves, Pullups, etc.  This stuff is important but your mindset when you come into the gym should be in order of preference:  Squat more, Snatch\clean more, push press more/deadlift more.  Thinking about much more than this will cause you to lose focus. )
7) Standing vertical jumps/Running vertical jumps [10 each]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

That's really all you need.  Try to do the track/bound workout 2x per week and then weights 2x week.  If you have more time then you can add another day of weights or add 1-2 more days of track tempo (ie 6-8 x 150 or 200m at 75%) if you need it for fat loss. You can arrange it however you want such as Monday: Track Workout, Tues: Weights, W: Track tempo, R: Track workout (AM), Weights (PM).  Friday rest, Sat: Weights (AM) Track Tempo (PM).

The goal for a template like this is for you to make progress.  In 8 weeks make you goal to add 10-15 pounds to your powerclean 20-30 to your squat and a couple inches or feet to all your measured jumps.

Sorry to write such a long post, sorta didn't realize how much I would change it till I got started...  It's not that your template is that poor, but I just favor an athlete program in the important measurable quantities he needs to improve (and gets to work at these multiple times per week), and use the axillarys to either bring up weakness/rehab or as part of a circuit.   You will notice that I actually put double leg jumping after squatting.  Surprisingly, standing jumping after squatting can actually help, but single leg jumping and bounding should be done before.  I also took things out of your program such as 3x8 hip thrusts once per week and 3x8 BSS once per week.  I personally, dont think you can really measure progress doing things like 3x8 BSS once per week.  If there is a really necessary reason why you do the hip thrusts (ie you have serious problems with glute activation, then put them back in as part of the warmup or circuit or do them daily for a while).  

Good luck!

Looks like I'm not gonna convince you that mileage is not only useless for a basketball player, but may even be slightly detrimental... but hopefully you will listen to a bit of evidence that might make you change slightly your opinions on aerobic activity.
You didn't really understand my 400m example, but it's a pretty complicated example and I did a poor job explaining... I will clear up a few things for you.

If you look at NBA players within the first 5 minutes of the game, all the starters are sweating heavily. What does that tell us? They are sweating because....... ? It's aerobix.. right?

No!  In February I saw Galen Rupp break the american 2 mile indoor record in Fayetteville, Arkansas.  Amazing.  The guy ran 8:09.  Not a bead of sweat.  He was cool as cucumbers.  Guess that means long distance running is not aerobic?

Seriously, sweating has absolutely nothing to do with aerobic vs anerobic.  Nothing at all!

Taking your sprinting example, the basketball player is constantly switching between these energy systems, even more violently than the 400m sprinter you described. He has to go from rest to full speed, and everywhere in between during games. So a player who plays a full game better be able to sustain ~1hr of running effortlessly since that's expected of all the athletes on the court. You don't get to slow down since that will cost you games. Yes there are breaks inbetween, but that's balanced out with having to exert full effort so often that it probably helps to stay aerobic 91% rather than 88% (just to use your numbers).

You are making the mistake every basketball coach who doesn't understand how the body works makes.  A very very very small break changes everything!!!  EVERYTHING.  You don't need long commercial breaks to cause basketball to be primarily anerobic.

We have done this drill over and over again in practice. Read closely.  Take those two athletes again.  Athlete A is a quarter miler who runs 47.x, 23.low, 11.high, in the (400,200,100m).  Athlete B is a 60m specialist who runs approximately 53, 22.high, 10.high in the (400,200,100m). 

In the 400m Athlete A wins everytime.  But if instead you make the athletes run a high intensity 300m (say 38 seconds) and then you stop them and have them take a 2 minute break and race the last 100m.  Athlete B KILLS athlete A.   Reduce that break to 1 minute, athlete B still wins.  Even at 30 seconds athlete B will win.  Practically any rest at all and athlete B will still muster the strength to blast out ahead and beat athlete A. 

What this demonstration is shows is that a very short break in intensity changes everything.  Basketball requires high levels acceleration and changes in direction (which the aerobic pathways cannot provide) and provides the necessary periods of low intensity for the anerobic system to recover to the extent necessary for it to provide energy for them.

It just seems to me that as a sprinter you have a very strong bias for anaerobic activities, which I understand and respect but this is clouding your judgement that basketball requires a solid aerobic base. I'm willing to bet every decent player at higher levels has a great aerobic base, and if they didn't they'd not be very competitive. It's probably taken for granted that someone who plays D1 like you mentioned earlier, has got the aerobic base already, and over the years of playing basketball has adapted to the aerobic demands of the game. I've read in several places that basketball is a mainly aerobic game, and even though I don't have the studies, i'm betting those who claimed it must have seen them.

Actually, as a sprinter I have a strong appreciation for middle and long distance running events which are actually aerobic activities unlike basketball.  I also am part of an actual measurable sport where everything can be tested unlike a game like basketball.  I will give you that many D1 basketball players may have some decent milage times but it's likely because poor coaching and the incorrect information that you read has encouraged coaches to force them to do unnecessary aerobic conditioning. 

You've read something in several places so you take for granted that studies have been done which support what you read?  I've actually done the studies!  I got my PhD doing the studies!  The best estimates have basketball at 20% aerobic (and that still doesn't mean the best way to train for that 20% is by doing mileage!)

Read: FOX, E.L. et al. (1993) The Physiological Basis for Exercise and Sport. 5th ed. Madison: Brown & Benchmark

As far as your randomised intervals go, i bet they will help someone with a good aerobic base from becoming better conditioned for basketball. Definitely. But if they didn't have a good aerobic base, they'd quickly find themselves running slow and the intervals wouldn't be as useful as running for 25-30 minutes at aerobic effort.

You are free to think that but completely wrong.  The necessity to acquire an "aerobic base" is one of the most pervasive myths in sport and completely false.  If the do 30 minutes and get this base they will STILL puke the first time they have to run fast.  And they won't be able to run as fast because they got slower acquiring this base. 

Btw can I ask you to comment on sprinters coming back from a season break, and building up an aerobic base first by running longer distances before they go on to train the specific max effort sprints? I read that's how Charlie Franscis trained his sprinters.

Yes it's an old myth that it's necessary to start with mileage.  Charlie was actually one of the first coaches to not do this.  Charlie was a huge proponent of short to long training (which is the dominant method now and is producing world record times) and advocated short to long training, with the addition of large amounts of tempo especially if fat loss is required.

Yeah, I came across something similar from  Kelly B - he gives the following drill:

3x the following -
2x30 yard sprints
30 yard jog

then walk 30y and repeat 3-5x.

I am guessing this might take 5-7 minutes, but a game isn't played for such a short duration. it's longer, so this can't be the complete answer. Would expect it better to first work on having aerobic fitness to run a full game first, then add in the intervals to work on the specific higher intensity movements?

Why do you need to find a good test of aerobic fitness for a bball player?  Honestly, the best way to get into basketball shape is to just play basketball.  Even if you could build a basketball specific aerobic base running, you would still play basketball and not be about to recover quickly because you haven't experienced the rigors of pounding involved with the game, so you would have aerobic base but not recovery capacity for basketball.... why not kill two birds with one stone?

I CRINGE doing this but if you REALLY want to simulate the aerobic fitness necessary to play basketball, then yes you could design something of longer duration.  It's a bit ridiculous but something along the lines of:

Sprint 30 meters.  Sprint 30 meters.  Jog 30 meters.  Sprint 30 meters.  Walk 30 meters (limit walk to 20 seconds).  Sprint 30 meters.  Jog 30 meters, Jog 30 meters.  Sprint 30 meters.  Walk 60 meters (recover 1 minute).  Sprint 30 meters, etc.

Basically, you should do the following to achieve fitness.  Take a die a roll it many times:

1: 30 meter sprint
2: 15 meter sprint
3: 30 meter jog.
4: 15 meter jog.
5: 60 second walk.
6: 30 second walk.

That gives you some randomness.  Still a poor approximation for basketball.