Adarq.org

Quote from: T0ddday on March 23, 2013, 02:08:52 pm

Quote from: entropy on March 22, 2013, 11:30:53 am

Quote from: LBSS on March 22, 2013, 10:19:51 am

more supplemental work for back? i know KF has made great use of rows and hypers.

Thanks. Perhaps in the future. I've added it to the TODONE list. I think I can get to my current goals without any extra non-squat assistance. But from there, say FS-5x115 will need to work on my upper back strength specially on that last rep. What I might do is add an extra rep on my backoff set. I usually do fives for those, might make those 6s. Might that work?

I'd caution against thinking like this.  There are two reasons why your upper back strength is limiting you. 

1) Holding heavy weight across the shoulder is causing your upper back to fatigue which causes your bar position to shift during multiple reps making the stress even worse.  This is often the problem when you are doing more than 3-4 reps.   

2) You are grinding a bit due to weak/fatigue quads and your instinct is to shift more weight to your hamstrings/glutes/low back and good-morning a bit... Of course you can't do this in a front-squat without dumping the bar so your upper-back has to dynamically fight the rest of your body to pull you back upright. 

####

In either case I would recommend against adding assistance work specific for front squats.  Remember, your goal is to jump high.  If its case (1):  Would upper-back work get you an extra rep or few lbs on your front squat... Maybe.   But you aren't trying to break the front squat world record, you are trying to become a better athlete.   For all the advantages front squats have for training athletes.... The big disadvantage is that the fatigue is almost unmanageable at higher rep ranges.   If you want to do higher reps, this is what back squat is for.   You just became an expert high-bar back squatter, now you can call on this ability to for your higher-rep back off work.   And yes, back squatting may require some assistance work down the road... and it might be unavoidable, but it will at least hurt your ability to get your legs stronger LESS than it will in the front squat.   

If it's case (2), then just let yourself get pinned if your upper-back forces you to with heavy weight.  When you do grind and feel upper-back activation though.... Keep your legs firing, cue the legs to fix the problem not the other way around.   Notice how when I do a high intensity front squat my back gets activated/bar slips forward and bar speed suffers.... However, I complete the rep not by having a strong back (my upper back is not very strong) but by keep my legs firing and standing up.   Keep your training simple.  It's working really well.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqCrz52UeBY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqCrz52UeBY</a>

Appreciate the detailed logical analysis brother. I'll try to discover which of 1 or 2 it may be. I go thru the first 3 reps without any problem, it doesn't seem heavy or challenging. The 4th one is hard enough but it looks easy on video. By the 5th rep i'm conscious of this being the last one - so I take a few breaths trying to get mentally prepared to bust out the effort. At this point i'm feeling the fatigue. I want to rack the weight but I also want the PR. I push forward. While resting before the 5th rep, I'm aware that standing there with a barbell on my shoulders is fatiguing me further so I can't wait too long. I need to stay tight but my body isn't willing to expend that effort because it's saving it for the final grind out of the hole. I go down into the hole and come up quick, and then, at around 1/4 squat position im at a dead stop, my back has rounded and I ride the bar down to the pins. I have to remind myself then that I should have anticipated my upper back rounding and worked harder to stay upright but it never occured to me during the actual rep because I was so focused on just completing the rep.

I agree with you that instead of GM it up, it's better to fail the rep. Or at least try to finish it by pushing thru the legs. That's good sense. I don't make a habit of GM my front squats, I consciously keep form honest throughout the set.

Why I have been doing 5s. I like the idea of doing 2 heavy sets of 5 and getting my volume in quickly. I did a lot of triples initially but those things are a bitch mentally, especially when I squat 3x a week and doing heavy triples frequently just kinda sucks. It's fun once in a while, i dont mind doing a set or two once a month. But 5s just seem better, they're brutally hard, they carry over to 3s and they give a great workout. I like the challenge and the economy in total sets they provide. Having said that, you've made a good case for doing higher reps with backsquat and lower reps with front squat. I think when i've got my FS fives to somewhere decent say 125kg - i'll maintain that, and then do more triples and doubles while doing the higher reps with backsquat. That's the other thing. I fail frontsquats a lot more gracefully than backsquats. Backsquat failure is kind of sudden, abrupt and precarious - i've learnt now to ride the bar down anticipating failure rather than actually failing though. Whereas with front squats I can technically fail and still safely ride the bar down without any risk of injury.

Also your video is private!

Thanks man, interesting observations. I'd love to see a study on femur/tibia lengths, height and SVJ in trained individuals and see if there's any correlation.

Training
FS 5x105 (PR), 5x100
BS 2x6x102, 4x6x80
OHP 2x5x55, 5x50, 8x45

FS notes:
Finally got the 105 fiver!! I wasn't up to it mentally today but somehow it happened. I'll take it. Hungry for more PRs this week. Bring it on.

BS notes:
Just re-realising why I abandoned backsquat. I'm the worlds worst backsquatter   I feel an incredible amount of torque on my lower back (spine) on the backsquat. I simply don't have that in front squats. The other thing is, most people say good squatter can front squat 90% of their olympic backsquat. Here I am struggling with backsquatting a weight LIGHTER than my front squat. WTF. I'm just not build for this lift. I give up. I don't get how other ppl can work their way easily to squatting 3 plates and some while i'm struggling around 2. I feel as though I should at least work up to 2x6x115 but how??

OHP notes:
Going to try devoting more attention to overhead press. Chasing a big bench didn't work, i'm a better overhead presser than bench presser, let me give ohp a chance now.

- squat 335 x 1; 345 x 1; 275 x 4,4
holy crap. i had 355 for sure, which would have been a PR tie. 345 went up fast. decided not to push it, though. no point in grinding. warmed up with HB until 135.

I mean 8 lb's in 1 week is a nasty gain.

kyle's main audience is people whose primary concern is aesthetics.