Adarq.org

Actually forget that noise. I dont have to conjecture about this stuff, I can just go outside and test shit out. That's what i'll be doing on wednesdays and fridays, get my heavy 3RM set (FS or BS depending on the day) and then do a bunch of technique work with the opposite exercise (FS if heavy BS on that day, or BS if heavy FS).

I might need more thoractic mobility. knees breaking first is fine on HBBS it gives me a lot of benefits  but why should my chest start to incline as a downside? That could be a mobility issue somewhere.

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The problem is, as I try this out now with a PVC pipe as my bar, when you break first at the knees, that's fine. But if the bar doesn't go forward that actually places a lot of stress on the knees. And that's with unweighted squats! Imagine what happens with weighted ones.  So the body reacts by unlocking at the hips and inclining at the waist. Now the load isn't on the knees. Which is good. But the bar path  is now ahead of midfoot. Perhaps i'm looking at this wrong by trying to maintain a strict vertical bar path. maybe I can bring bar back into midfoot as I go descend. Although that sounds incorrect.... :/

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edit 3
hmm, so if I break first at the knees and try to hold bar position it over-stresses the knees. But suppose I break first at the knees but hold the weight on the heels? Perhaps this will allow the best of both worlds.. will explore that further.

Very good read man. All he says in there goes right along with what feels natural for me when lifting.

Welcome. It's a she btw, haha. A down to earth MIT PhD rocket scientist with great insight on the physics of lifting. I find myself agreeing with her a lot.

I should thank you too for the tip on using 5lb plates. Today I first tried using a block under my heels and that shit is impossibly tricky for some reason, I felt so awkward and unstable. It maybe because the weight was too heavy (120kg front squat) but then later I tried with 2.5kg plates and they're a lot easier to balance on compared to the block, albeit with a lighter weight. With the block i was unsure whether to put the weight on my heels in which case toes go up! Or on the toes in which case it just didn't feel right.

But even with the heel I can't get close to midfoot. I am quite lost for ideas now. It's frustrating me. I'm not even looking at the concentric, just the first half of the movement on the way down. Without midfoot alignment I'm a hopeless backsquatter. And an ugly front squatter. I might need a 2" heel to bring my hips closer under the bar as per Tommy Kono above.

So i think I have some thoughts on what to experiment with next time. I have to jettison the knee break first on HBBS. Sure it gives me a bounce at the bottom (hamstring?), it brings my knees forward and gives my legs some room to sit into. Those are the good things. The bad thigns are it takes me forward of midfoot. Causing a great deal of inclination of the chest, shooting hips back and making it a low quality unathletic exercise that puts too much stress on the low back. That's why it has to go.

INSTEAD I have to concentrate on holding bar position from the top and driving hips down hard in a straight vertical line. This will ensure at least in theory a midfoot bar path. Hopefully it will automatically put my legs etc in the position they need to be too. Now, what i've found in the past doing this is that it makes my shins vertical unless i knee break first. But i'll have to find a way to get that ankle angle smaller (maybe the heel will do that for me?). And this is about backsquat. On FS i have no fkn clue since I don't do the knee break thing at all. Perhaps just need a bigger heel i dont know.

Oh and ankle mobility is veryyyyy good right now. I went into FS warmups with great ankle flexiblity so i'm happy with the improvement i've made in that area.

 a big total heel (> 1.75") is a bit crazy. and the scary thing is unless you groove the movement in a very upright manner, a bigger heel will actually force you even further of midfoot because any inclination that occurs naturally gets amplified with a heel UNLESS you consciously work on being more upright in which case it facilitates it. Kind of like alcohol and being horny in the porter scene of macbeth.

THIS is ATG lol

Would Superman give up another superpower?  Well, lifting in a heel that is too low will do just that. 

The other day I was training in an undisclosed location on the West Coast.  To my amazement, someone actually referred to the Risto's I was wearing as "high heeled shoes".    About 3 years ago, people would ask me why the Risto heel was "so low"; now, I'm asked why is it "so high".  This is laughable -- the heel hasnt changed! What has changed is marketing to strength athletes.

What is more interesting are the social dynamics at play of adoption. Unfortunately, there is an entire population of lifters who are now giving away kilos off their lifts, pounds off their squats by wearing a shoe which is too supple and too low a heel height. 

Most people need over an inch heel to get into the power position.  About a 1.25 inch heel proportionate to foot length is optimal for squats, snatches, and clean and jerks.  The heel allows the lifter to maintain leverage. It permits solid contact of the foot to the floor as the lifter pushes out of a squat or against the floor in a pull.  Further, in a deep squat the higher heel prevents the lifter from caving forward onto their knees or curling their back. 

A flat heel will cause most lifters to have too wide a stance in their start position as well as in the catch of their snatch or clean. This puts excessive stress on the joints and knees with such oblique angles in the hips to make up for the lack of heel. Ever see someone squat with their heels come up?

http://gwenweightlifting.blogspot.com.au/2011/07/heel-height-what-right-heel-size-is.html

Youtube interview

On further reflection I've decided the romaloes are pointless. The heel height of 3/4'" is insufficient. I have realised this sport is for small guys with small legs and feet. What heel works  for someone with a size 8 foot won't be enough for me. Maybe they do in fact scale heel height up a little with shoe length but its unlikely to be enough.  Because leg length is an additional factor. I need probably around 1.5-1.75" heel to get the same benefit as a smaller dude.

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edit, check out this chinese Olympian who has the same Romaloes 2 shoe but with a twist

I completely agree that form is determined by leg segment length, tibia and femur ratios and torso length. That's fine not something I'd dispute. My point is squat depth for any squatter isn't just about the elevation of hip crease to knee as is commonly defined. It's also about knee height relative to the ground. That needs to be factored in. You can have depth in one sense and not have it in the other. And vice versa. I think. I will add examples soon when I have a chance to collate them for illustration.

I tried and failed to squat with a bar path over midfoot even with a block under my heel. The bar just starts and stays over my toes. Maybe i'm just build wrong for this exercise and I can't have a barpath over the middle. But without that when the the weight gets heavy it will always be a problem.

By the way I downloaded analysed Kingfishers 465 squat yesterday. No one will be surprised to know the bar tracks over mid foot thru the whole lift. KF is textbook midfoot. If KF gives permission I can post my analysis. I need to figure out a way to achieve the same bar path.

Training
FS 2x129 (PR), 1x131.5 (PR)
BS 2x127.5, 2Fx140, 2x135, 1Fx130, 1x115, 1x115, 6x100
BP 5x88.5 (PR)
WEIGHTED DUNKZ x 10 (+17kg)
PICKUP BBALL (1 hr, 20 mins)

FS notes:
Weak. That double was a ME.

BS notes:
I used a heel block for the last 4 sets. Experimented around aiming for a barpath over midfoot. Neither here nor there.

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Hellish squats. Going to take bad workouts in stride, they're to be expected until I get used to training on a deficit etc. All good. Abs starting to come in already which is cool but might dash my plans for featherweight status at 75kg BW.

Conditioning and bp later tonight.

Nice work. You're pretty well rounded LBSS! I'm going to do the test tonight if the weather holds up. I don't expect to do very well, partly because I won't go all out just yet being so unprepared. Just need to get a time on the board to start improving.