Adarq.org

of course slow is relative, but even by the standard of "relatively lean, athletic-looking men in their 20s" i feel like i'm pretty slow. don't really have much to compare to; in ultimate i was never the slowest nor the fastest guy on the field but sport speed is a whole different animal anyway. the only time in ultimate you're ever really near top speed is on a deep throw. and then you're probably running in a slight curve, tracking the disc, and thinking about how you're going to high-point it with another dude right next to you doing the same thing.

i digress. the point is, how to become a faster 60m runner? obviously technique is an issue for me*, but i can't help but feel that improving the deficits limiting my top speed (tendon stiffness? "reactivity?") would also improve my jumping. so what's the Rx? more focus on long sprints? flies? if adarq were still reading this i'd ask him if, looking back, he thinks his high-rep MR half tucks really helped his tendon stiffness.

btw my buddy tahar is moving to tunisia next week. gonna find out more this weekend, apparently it all came together fast.

*as is genetics, obviously, but i can't do anything about that now.

You asked some questions about yourself in Avisheks thread and we were already giving him enough shit about his 30m times so I felt like not hijacking it more and bringing it back to your thread.   A few points.

1) The first problem is it's hard to compare speed.  As illustrated brilliantly by the Nesta Carter video... most relatively lean athletic looking men are really about the same speed till about 20-30m.  Sure, he is a step faster than the other guys but the difference is minor compared to what happens by 50-60m.   The difference in how long in takes for humans to get up to 8 m/s is relatively small compared to the difference in top speed.   To make a decent car analogy; you can think that we all have between 150-160 pound-feet of torque at 2000 rpm but some of us are about to hit ridiculously high peak power at 8000 rpm and some of us essentially crap out at 4000 rpm....  Unfortunately most sports don't involve spend much time at such high RPMs where the huge horsepower resides, so this difference isn't seen.  But they ARE extremely related and you have noticed that it want to get better at...     

2) Unfortunately unlike the vertical jump, most people don't really know how fast they are.  Most of the population you talk about are between 5'8 and 6'3 and know if they can dunk/touch the rim, etc... Which already gives a decent assessment of their jumping ability...  But 100m speed.  Nobody really knows.  If I had to guess I would say if you can run sub 12....   You are fast by the standard you gave.  I really wish more people would find out their speed but I think the mean for that population would have to be around 12.5 with a standard deviation of about 0.5 seconds.  So over 13... slow.  Under 12... fast.   But, of course I wish I had more data.  I've gathered this from going to large high school track meets in the Los Angeles area which is about the only place where most everyone is made to run.  At a standard large meet only the fast kids (ie. the starting wide receivers, etc.) break 12.  Only the slower kids (eg. the distance runners, basketball players) go much over 13.  12.x is standard for an athletic fast kid. 

3) Your question ' i digress. the point is, how to become a faster 60m runner? obviously technique is an issue for me*, but i can't help but feel that improving the deficits limiting my top speed (tendon stiffness? "reactivity?") would also improve my jumping. so what's the Rx? more focus on long sprints?'.   

I completely agree it's helpful and also agree that the RX is all of the above.  The main thing you need is just more time on the track.  If you told me your entire goal was an increased 1rm max in the squat my advice would be to slowly ramp up to squatting 2x daily.  That's the tried and true way to optimize your potential in ALMOST anything.... so it a lot.   Running is one of the semi-exceptions (marathoners for example can run 2x daily marathons)....  but I would still massively increase your time on the track.  The basic gyst would be something like this:

1) Work up to getting to the track/hills/running surface 6-8 times per week.   You want to get better at the 60m.... So run a lot of all out sprints from 30 - 90 meters.   Work on strength training specific to sprinting.   If you want an analogy think of Squat (and others) :: Standing Vertical Jump  is to Single Legged Bounding, Sled Drags, Direct Hamstring and Glute Work :: Sprinting.    If you don't have a sled you can tow someone who is holding you back with band resistance.  You can buy such a device for like 20 dollars.    Stride pattern your way to 10 and maybe even 20 meters.  So put a tape down on step 7 and step 12/13.   DRILL this.   Get even leaner.    For now really alternate intensity.   If today you do 50m single leg bounds, resisted runs and 5 60m sprints....  Tomorrow you can do 40 meter flys (easier on the body), single leg strength training and 5-10 150s.    This is the formula but the main RX is more more more running.    Run with Avishek or someone faster than you.  Get in a 3pt stance, you say go (and get a bit of a head start from this advantage) and try to stay with them to 60m.  Find out where they leave you and work on holding them off.   Don't worry about your 30 m time but every so often run an all out 200 and figure out if your getting faster.   That will work.

------------------------------------------------------

I assume your buddy Tahar is Tunisian.  Man I haven't been back since 2007.  Don't know if I ever will.... why is he going? 

BTW, I'm leaving the country for a week.   Then my track pre-season starts up.  I aim to copy you guys and have a progress tracker... If I do a good job you are free to get the speed training from it.  Most of pre-season is short to long so it will be right up your alley. 

yeah i'd imagine the cutoffs are just to intimidate pretenders and make sure that whoever shows up is actually somewhat fast. it'd be hard to field a varsity team if your cutoffs were that ridiculous. 10.3 would have blown away the field at the pac-10 championships last season and been the fourth or fifth-fastest time anyone in the conference had run all year.

btw. oregon had a girl run 10.96 last year! 

Wheres the gym?  I need to make a note for next time I'm in Baltimore. 

Oregon?  English Gardner?   She's a nice one.  She is pro now.  Got 4th in Moscow. 

Yeah, just found out they handtime at the tryout so 10.3 makes more sense.  Will be fun to go on Thursday.  To be fair at the championships last year (it's pac-12 now btw) their were only two guys under 10.2 and they were both 10.0X sprinters.... and both were from USC.   So.... if anyone deserves a ridiculous standard it's the school with like twice as many olympians as any other school.... 

yeah it's the 150s test. i ran the 150s in about 25s -- remember how slow i am -- but my recoveries were shortish, maybe 15-20s each. i did walk them.

in re: the other tests:

1. best broad jump = ~9'3-9'6, somewhere in there
2. 30m fly = ???
3. SL bound = ??? because i don't know how many bounds, also, is this with a lead-in or from a SL standing start?
4. how far i can run in 45s = ??? but might be fun to find out. maybe next week.
5. event-specific tests = i still can't jump that good

That's a pretty nice standing broad jump.  I check the tables again but I remember that over 9 feet was good. 

The SL bounding looks like it consists of a standing triple jump on turf, and then single leg bounding on each foot for 50 yards.  Eg. Stand at 0 yards, jump on your left foot repeatedly with an entire stride cycle.  Ground contacts between start and finish are the score.

The 45 second test is a REALLY good test for getting athletes right up until the aerobic range.  45 seconds is about the maximum when it comes to lactate threshold. 

The event specific tests for jumper would be long/triple/high jump or the 100/200/400 for sprinters.  God, the standards are pretty high at USC.   The required time in the 100m for a walk on is 10.8 and a 10.5 only gets your a promise of a partial.  10.3 is required for full scholarship.  I think they might be exaggerating a bit though because some of their athletes are not that fast.

- T0ddday test
4:41 and this wasn't even that hard. so either T0ddday's people are in horrible shape or i'm in better shape than i think.

That's the 150's test?   Should be pretty hard as long don't jog the recovery.   If the walk recovery is avg 30 seconds + about 15 seconds to get to pushup position and knock out 10 pushups and get back up and run....  That means your getting your 150's in an average of 20.0 seconds give or take depending on how much your recovery goes long/short.   20 second 150's isn't blazing, it's about 13 seconds per hundred.... But the fatigue from the low rest and the pushups make it feel super hard; it's 52 second pace for the quarter but done over 750 meters with short short rests.... Not easy for me...    BTW in case your interested, I am training an aspiring walk-on triple jumper for USC.   The standards that they test every athlete on and that they think best predict athletic potential are:

1) Standing Broad Jump
2) 30 meter fly
3) Single Leg Cycle Bounding for Distance
4) 45 second run (how far can you go in 45 seconds)

(in that order)

5) Event specific tests.

----- So, your workout seems pretty well tailored for a school with a pretty decent track history (more olympic medals than any other university in the states). 

So could a weak upperbody result in a poor sprint performance.

Not in itself but a weak whole body sure could and you suffer from that.   I didn't realize you were under 60kg!  How tall are you?   For the last time please for gods sake clear your head of thinking about phases and leaning!  You don't need to lean.  You are not strong enough.  JUST run.  Goddamn guys been running sub 10 since the 1970s with NO drive phase and hardly any lean.  You don't need to lean and you don't need to realize your at top speed because you are NEVER at top speed.  Realizing your at top speed and maintaining is for making a fast time faster... not for making a slow person fast.  You need to clear your head and try and run by exerting power to the track the entire time.  Just go out there, think about something that makes you mad and run like hell.   

The beauty of being so weak is you don't need recovery!  Keep up the weights AND everyday you don't train with the track club do this workout:   Run 5 50m sprints all out and 5 100m sprints ALL out.   Just run with power.  EVERY DAY.  Then rest 5 minutes and run 1 400m all out.  Time it.  If you can get the 100m's timed, great.  If not fine.  Just run them as hard as you possibly can.  You don't need recovery from the speed work because you are not really strong enough to stress the CNS.  Like how a 7 year old kid can essentially do speed work every day.   AND then add in eating.  I'm usually a hater of mass building... But unless your under 5'6....  Eat enough to add 5-10kg in the next 3 months.

To be honest, when i was running the meet, and i was running at a lean, i thought that probably i was in the lean for too long so i had to start transitioning to the maintain phase, but probably you are right i can accelerate a lot longer, so maybe i will try practicing my acceleration so i know when i should be at top speed. I probably get to around 40m and am still leaning and thinking about getting up.

i should concentrate on the 800m or 1500m  noooooo thanks, i do not want to do that, unless it will help in my 100m time then i will be willing. i already jog 1200m warm up before sprint work.

Sometimes you either love the sport or you don't.  If you love the sport and your coach thinks you can help your team more by running the 800m.  You run the 800m.  It's about running the best time you can in the event that's best for you.... not about running the 100m because you think it's a cool event.  We don't always pick where we will excel... but better to be great and your second choice than terrible at your first.

I was thinking of doing bounding on grass, but last time i tried that and i had pains in my shin so i was thinking i have to get my squat level up to 1.5x bw + to start any sort of plyometrics.

You don't necessarily need to squat but you need to build up power and strength somehow.  Bounding can be done at differing intensities.  You can ramp up intensity.  The 1.5x bw squat rule is not set in stone.

I will try and eat more.

paralysis by analysis - i do have that problem, but not during the running, preparation time, but not at the event also.

I don't analyse when i am running, i just run as fast as i can, but am able to remember every single thing that happened maybe because i am not moving fast enough and every single mishap that happens it's always in my mind after the race, it always seems to be at when i am at up right phase that everyone surpasses, at drive phase i'm about level some ahead but at up right they just pass me way ahead.

To be honest, when i was running the meet, and i was running at a lean, i thought that probably i was in the lean for too long so i had to start transitioning to the maintain phase, but probably you are right i can accelerate a lot longer, so maybe i will try practicing my acceleration so i know when i should be at top speed. I probably get to around 40m and am still leaning and thinking about getting up.

If you remember everything that happened during the race then clearly you do have the problem during the event also.   Do you not realize that you just said that you thought about transitioning to maintenance DURING the meet?  For the last time!   Erase the words "drive", "maintenance" and "phase" from your vocabulary.  They are harmful for your progress currently.  You are to think about one thing and one thing only and that is running fast.  Just run 100m all out.  Try and go as fast as you can the whole time.  Try and accelerate the whole time.  Try, try, try.  Fast, fast, faster.  That's all you need to think about from here on out.

to push back a little against t0ddday: IME*, spikes have strong psychological benefits in much the same way oly* shoes do. they tell my brain, your feet are ready! your shoes will grip the track and they are very light! now it is time to go fast! i'm slow, of course, but i have enjoyed the feeling of sprinting in track shoes, and that helps me train harder.

Totally agree.  It's like the feeling before a football game when you get your pads on and tape up your ankles and basically switch into fight mode.  But.... that's a feeling you should primarily reserve for competition.  If you wear spikes in training everyday then you don't get the psychological boost when it's time to spike up and get in the blocks.  Not saying you shouldn't ever wear spikes but that the majority of practice should be done in trainers and spikes should be saved for things like block work and short time trials and patterning, etc.   Spikes may make you feel like you are training harder but wearing a soft trainer actually provides a better training benefit because your legs have to be stiff enough to overcome the cushion in the shoe.... training on spikes removes this challenge and makes it more likely you get injured.   In your case you primarily run a few days a week and do really low volume so you probably will be fine but I see you still post about pain in your shins!   

However, if seifullaah73 wants to significantly do the amount of track work necessary to become a real sprinter then the volume he will need to do will be far too much to complete in spikes.  At high levels athletes spend a large amount of time in trainers AND on grass.  Only sparingly are spikes and mondo tracks used.  They are great for times but horrible for the bones/joints/etc.    Additionally since he seems to be super weak it seems that he is exactly the kind of athlete who shouldn't risk injury!   

I think of oly shoes as slightly different because oly shoes actually somewhat change the position of your body in the squat.  Depending on your mobility this might actually allow you to hit different depth which drastically changes the exercise.  Spikes to me are the equivalent of just giving yourself a minor advantage.

I definitely need to get it taped, they didn't tape which i was dissapointed but will get it taped. I can have someone come with me to the track and tape me.
by fit you mean increase my endurance level, which i think is at a reasonable level, i think maybe because my squat is low, that would be the reason for me being slow.

I can run 200m under 30s, i got 29s last time when i was running the tempo run of 200m 30s rest 100m.
i can probably run 400m under 60s if i consider the time i got for my 300m tempo runs with less than 1 min rest in between, which is 60s consistent, but if not then i probably cannot run 400m under 60s.

so by getting fit you mean, like running on the treadmill and stuff like that.

thanks

I never ever mean running on the treadmill.   Your 300m tempo runs don't suggest you can run under 60s actually.   Time your 400 if you can run under 60s then you are correct and your speed endurance is not the problem.  In that case I would suggest you move up to the 800m or 1500m because you will be more successful there than at the 100m.   

It's not necessarily because your squat is low (squatting is not  a prerequisite for speed) but something seems to be wrong with your ability to accelerate.  Strength training will help for sure but IMO bounding will be more specific and should be prioritized.  Also you probably want to eat more.  Additionally I would bet that you suffer from a strong case of paralysis by analysis.  When you described your 100m race you seemed to remember every single moment and every transition from drive phase to max velocity, etc, etc.   We run best when we react to a gun and go somewhat automatic.  Often times I'll run good races and then not be able to remember parts of them.   Mechanics are nailed in practice; when you race you should be in go mode.   Also, understand that the 100m sprint models you read about are for a very specific class of runner.  The aren't super relevant for women who hit their top speed much later than men in the race.   For someone like me who runs the times of elite women but runs a very different race pattern than them the models also somewhat fail to describe how my mechanics should be optimized.   

So for you it's going to be even more off.  Running 14.4 suggested to me that maybe you just aren't fit enough for the 100m.  Since you can run sub 30 in the 200m, it seems that is not the case but rather you don't have the power to run fast.  In that case your running model would be better approximated by the race model of a young child.   You probably aren't powerful enough to benefit from a drive phase and probably are capable of accelerating for almost the entire race.   Thinking about driving to 30m and then trying to maintain is probably hurting you.  You are maintaining when your body still could be accelerating!   That's why I have told you over and over to throw out all this drive phase crap and just get out their and run 100m as fast as you can.  That's all you should think about.