Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - T0ddday

Pages: 1 ... 37 38 [39] 40 41 ... 58
571
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« on: November 05, 2013, 11:54:53 am »
Quote from: LBSS on November 04, 2013, 10:51:10 pm
Quote from: Raptor on November 04, 2013, 08:22:13 pm
In order to deal with jet lag you must manipulate light intake. If you adjust that by 2 hours per day to accomodate the difference then you're going to be good.

You must pretend you're still in the city you left off from by taking advantage of the sunlight/getting the blankets on the windows on etc, depeding on the case.

try to sound a little less bossy and sure of yourself the next time you offer context-free, useless unsolicited advice.

Lol.  It's also much easier said then done when you travel for work.  If you have work on Friday in LA and then travel to Paris for a conference where you are speaking at 9am local time....  You can't so much as say "sorry I'm going to sleep in and deliver my talk at some odd hour of the night because I'm adjusting myself by two hours per day.    You just do drugs to sleep/wake up and hope for the best.   Road warrior lifestyle is fun but horrible for training.

572
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: October 25, 2013, 08:17:13 pm »
Quote from: entropy on October 25, 2013, 12:34:18 pm
He said i look too serious, i'm too emotionally involved in the lift, describing my facial expressions etc, that i should be more relaxed. relaxed is good he said. i've got a lot of that mindset so i'm not questioning it at all, feel like ive done the majority of my training this past year without needing to psyche myself up which is a good thing because it's not sustainable going balls to the wall hardcore chaos and pain style very often. re the tension/tighness, they want like 3/4 or 2/3 tension or something like that, not 100%, that's what i meant by minimal, it deosn't mean literally no tension of course.

I could be wrong but I don't think the advice has anything to do with percentage of tension.  The same advice is given to beginning sprinters and wildly misinterpreted.  I can't tell you how many sprinters have been given advice to "relax" and then they run like rag dolls and run really slow.  At high speed sprinting you NEED to have a lot of muscles isometrically turned on - almost every non-prime mover is isometrically active at high speeds otherwise you fall over or collapse on footstrike.   If you ever try to run after an abdominal strain you realize this instantly.  I imagine squatting is similar. 

However, there is this feeling when you run a really really good pickup in the 100m the same feeling you get when you hit a home run and perfectly knuckle kick a soccer ball to top netting... This feeling of ease from perfect execution.  IMO that's what your coach is trying to get for you.  It's not 2/3 tension, it's 100 % tension coupled with 100% relaxation/100% anxiety.    It's really hard to describe but think about how if any of your strength, any of your brain is wasted on the anxiety of the difficultly of the feat and becomes weak and choppy.  That's what you are going for.  You don't actively loosen your muscles, but you relax and let your self unconsciously  break through barriers.  If it sounds like BS it's because it's 50% bs 50% just really hard to explain.   

573
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« on: October 25, 2013, 08:05:59 pm »
Quote from: Raptor on October 25, 2013, 01:10:04 pm
The more I look at this log the more I think that LBSS would be the best served doing longer distance sprints (200-400m). It's maybe the one thing he has never done consistently.

I agree that everyone should... but I don't know why you think that would help his vertical that much.  If he did a proper training in that range he would get in better shape and be a little leaner and thus jump a little higher... but aside from that I wouldn't expect that much carryover from something that is really prep work for most everyone but a 400m runner.  A base is good though.

574
Article & Video Discussion / Re: Squats vs. Performance
« on: October 05, 2013, 03:42:12 am »
Quote from: Avishek on October 05, 2013, 02:04:10 am
Quote from: T0ddday on October 01, 2013, 02:01:30 pm
I agree that the term 'competing motor pattern' makes it sound like BS but I'm still believe that Avishek's experience isn't totally unheard of.... even if I think his interpretation of it is a little off.  A few points to remember:

It's not a little on, it's a lot on, but unfortunately there aren't studies that talk about this stuff - that's probably because most athletes don't spend the bulk of their time with 85+% 1RM training on a weekly basis . . . but my obsessive nature led to me lifting 85% percent basically 100% of the time and that made me slower, it's as obvious as night and day how quickly a heavy lifting session affects my athleticism and agility.

Quote
1) He doesn't sprint very much.

That would not matter in my experience at all. Running 5-6 days a week would be great for reinforcing a pull dominant sprint pattern, but it would kill my squats. Every time I squat it would reinforce a quad dominant pattern and it would just be masked better by running more often.

Quote
2) He also doesn't squat very much.  Relatively.   This is important because while he claims it has nothing to do with fatigue it's really subjective.... It surely isn't explicit fatigue but if his recovery from squats is not great.... he might have residual fatigue 3-5 days after moving big weight in the squat...  What would be interesting would be finding someone who is well adapted to daily squatting (like an oly lifter) and to being training them in the sprints.   Then after some point drop the squatting and see if/how much performance increases.   

Oly squatting is much lower volume than squatting I did. I maxed out on sets of doubles/triples every time I squatted until I started doing higher volume, then I still maxed.  My relative squat at my best was 2.12. Not a lot, but I also have long levers, and used a pretty narrow stance (heels 8inches apart) so honestly if you look at the moment arms I'm lifting a lot more than someone else with shorter levers.

What is residual fatigue? If I raced against the hamsrting dominant 2012 version of me he would beat me past 30m with the same amount of "residual fatigue" I had any day. I didn't even need to try to sprint hard to run really fast, because the speed was just there.


Quote from: AlexV on October 01, 2013, 09:51:18 pm

I think this is dead on.

Bondarchuck found that impoving general strength improves performance in beginners, intermediates, and lower level advanced athletes.  Thing is most of us discussing here and most of the athletes we will be coaching fall into these categories.

Even then he also found that improving strength in some exercises improves performance in elite athletes.  So it comes down to figuring out what carries over to what.  I think the full squat does not carry over as well to sprinting as a narrower stance (hip width), hip loaded, 1/3 squat (just above hamstring parallel). squat. 





Certainly you could be dead on, but I hesitate to say something is a lot on when n = 1.   The amount of genes I have looked at in lab and been SURE that they were disease hits until we got more data..... Many.


Huh?  Why does it not matter that you don't sprint much?   That's why it totally would matter.  I was making your point for you, eg its possible squats made you slower despite the fact I have many many examples of sprinters for whom squatting didn't make them slower.   The point is it wouldn't kill your squats if it is all you know....  Sprinters sprint.  That's what they do from jump.  Then someone makes us squat after practices and we start squatting.  We can't tell if sprinting is killing our squats because we didn't squat without sprinting ever.   But it doesn't necessarily make sprinters slower.  It makes you slower.   One reason might be that you are not adding squats to sprinters program, but trying to sprint while switching to prioritizing squats... That's not common. 


What volume is oly squatting?  I don't know about all oly squatting but the only gym I ever trained at (broz gym in vegas) had them twice daily workouts which were something along the lines of work out to a max, 6 triples, 2x5.   High volume and intensity and they do it for years.  I imagine they must get somewhat accustomed to it.   One interesting bit of info is the coach of that gym absolutely HATED sprinting/lunges or anything unilateral because it "built the wrong coordination".   Just one opinion though, at Waxman's gym in LA he has his lifters run intervals every so often in GPP.


One thing I either don't understand or don't agree with is these terms...   Does hamstring dominant mean faster?  What is a pull dominant pattern?  I don't understand why sprinting is "pulling".   Sure the hamstrings act as a hip-extensor but pulling and pawback are universally regarded as horrible cues for sprinters because they actually encourage GCT.    Just look at Asafa Powell and Michael Johnson run.  They are both sprinters who run with MV of close to 13 m/s.  Ridiculously fast.  But the motor pattern that they use to achieve it is pretty different.   I think this is part of the problem with your statement... Sprinting is more diverse than squatting; it's possible that what you experience might not be the same for someone who runs differently.... Not as much true in squatting.

Residual fatigue is just the point that you can't really disentangle fatigue and aberrant motor patterning because acquiring the aberrant motor pattern ALSO induces fatigue.   If you took this really fast 2012 version of yourself and got the same amount of residual fatigue to do this test.... Wouldn't the 2012 version of you now be slow (because you got the fatigue by doing squats???)....   That's what I dont get. 


575
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: October 02, 2013, 10:22:22 pm »
Quote from: LBSS on October 02, 2013, 10:07:13 am
Quote from: entropy on October 02, 2013, 09:02:46 am
^ see my post just before yours, not talking about skill but strength

you're imagining a dichotomy that's not there. sports strength like what you're talking about with the skinny little guy who can't be stripped IS skill. and that skill IS strength. they are the same. i'm not trying to be zen, that's just the way it is. no other measure than "can you take the ball from him when he's going to the hoop" is worth anything when you're measuring his strength at holding onto the ball when he's going to the hoop. i would bet $100 that the only "measurement" that correlates strongly would be something like how fast he can get through taylorhorton's dribbling complex.

edit: and if you took that guy and added barbell strength WHILE NOT ALLOWING HIS SKILLS TO DEGRADE, he would be even harder to take the ball from. but improving his ball handling even further obviously is not going to have a strong influence on his bench. as for what's appropriate for an individual's progression as a player, it depends on the individual. if i wanted to get better at basketball i'd be best-off dropping almost all of my weight room work and spending nearly all of my training time on the court. i'm reasonably strong but mediocre at basketball. if anthony davis wants to get better at basketball he should probably spend a bit more time working on his bench. he's skinny like a runway model but has breathtaking skills for someone his height.

I agree 100% with LBSS and Mutumbo on this one.  Your making up qualities that don't exist.  If you have ever done manual labor perhaps you have heard of something called "old-man strength".  That's the made up strength quality where your uncle can unscrew bolts and saw faster than you even though your stronger in the weight-room.   In reality there is not such thing as "old-man strength" it's just a combination of grip strength and labor skills that the young person hasn't developed.

There are two things going on here. 

1) As LBSS said the skinny guy who can't be stripped IS skillful to such a degree that you can't see it.  Perhaps he wraps the ball better in contact; perhaps he actually brings the ball down on his reverse layup with more precise timing, etc.   The effect is he is hard to strip, the cause is he has developed a lot more skill than the next guy.   His skill level at keeping the ball may be somewhat unconscious (eg he isn't thinking "let me cradle the ball strongest here on my spin move because this is where it's mostly likely poked out by the help defense") but it's a learned and develop skill, not a magical "strength hardness".   A few years ago we used to play a lot of pickup basketball after practice and since I look somewhat bigger than your average guy when I would jump into contact and score other players would say "weight room".   I don't know if they save that in Australia but it's an American colloqualism for when you score the ball essentially going through the other player.  What's funny is it has more to do with body mass, leverage, and skill than anything in the weight-room. 

2) As Mutumbo said.... There is just no replacement for toughness.   Unfortunately, this might be a bit harder for someone to acquire because you can practice all you want but you might not have toughness.  Toughness is really acquired pretty young; you can pretty much tell from an early age which kids have it and which kids don't.  Basically the kid with all the broken bones who doesn't seem to fear much socially or physically and is a bit crazy...   Usually only children/first children have less toughness and young girls are more cautious.  Exceptions to every rule.   One way to be tough is to just naturally not give a fuck or have a bunch of older brothers that beat the hell out of you all the time...  The thing about being fearless is it's a bit maladaptive...   I think the only way to really acquire toughness is to play a collision sport where you realize that you just have to let go and go absolutely crazy.  I didn't start playing football until high-school and I was pretty afraid to hit during drills because they coach was forced to make us watch tons of videos about spearing and paralysis so I tackled high with my head to the sky and and always received blows when tackling.   One day I was already moving full speed and somebody came out of no-where and I had little choice but to dip a shoulder and I was able to pancake the guy and continue running over him.  After that I realized the benefit of delivering the blow rather than receiving it and became somewhat addicted to tackling and started playing like the strongest guy on the field....

The confound here is described in point #2.   To some extent you can figure out "toughness/physicality".... but it's easier to figure it out if you are also bigger and stronger to begin with.  Throwing your body into the other player will almost always yield a better result than flinching and cowering... but if your really weak your gonna get wrecked and your glasses broken either way.... so you won't get as much positive feedback to inspire your toughness.  Perhaps your teammate complain that your soft.... But since you are tall and useful to the team they don't complain very loudly. 

The bottom line for you is to not go down any further the path which you have started.  No offense but I call this the typical "nerd" approach to sports.  They find that they have some disadvantage (example: "you get the ball stripped the other guy doesn't") and then they take an approach where they essentially say "Ok back to the lab to figure out how to model the problem and ameliorate this deficit"....   Then the waste a bunch of time doing shit like band bicep curls with my hands clasped to increase strength for ripping the ball through the lane...  This is the kind of idiocy that spawns things like bosu ball squats....

Don't waste your time... Yes, you might be too old to get the type of toughness Charles Barkley had.    But if you want to be the best forward you can be in basketball you just have to go down your checklist and KEEP IT SIMPLE:  Get bigger and stronger in the weight room, practice, practice, practice to get better and better at the game, AND TRY HARDER, imagine something that makes you mad, go to a crazy place, whatever works for you, but play and practice inspired and it will fall into place.  You are doing great and doing all you can do... Don't derail yourself.

576
Article & Video Discussion / Re: Squats vs. Performance
« on: October 01, 2013, 02:01:30 pm »
Quote from: Mutumbo000 on October 01, 2013, 07:06:21 am
How can it be a 'competing motor pattern' when squatting has absolutely nothing to do with sprinting. If you go out and run lap after lap and do a lot of middle distance and long distance running/specific training for those events than I could see speed suffering- Speed will suffer because your body is compensating for endurance. However, I just can't see how going to the gym and doing a few sets of squats a week is going to affect, let alone deteriorate your speed.


I agree that the term 'competing motor pattern' makes it sound like BS but I'm still believe that Avishek's experience isn't totally unheard of.... even if I think his interpretation of it is a little off.  A few points to remember:

1) He doesn't sprint very much.  All my experience with squatting + sprinting is with sprinters who already sprint a lot more than him.  On average we are talking about being on the track 5-6 days a week and doing about 500-1000m of speed work,  another 2000 of special endurance work, and probably 5000m of tempo running per week.  Not to mention warm-up, bounding, drills, exchange practice, sled pulls, block work, etc, etc.     The point is there we are talking about sprinters with very very well reinforced motor patterns for sprinting.... When we add squats twice a week in this case, there seems to be no detriment aside from fatigue.   I don't know if his competing motor pattern concept is true, but it could be true but only observed for an athlete like Avishek.   Most people either spend more time on the track or are relative beginners when it comes to strength/speed training and so wouldn't notice it. 

2) He also doesn't squat very much.  Relatively.   This is important because while he claims it has nothing to do with fatigue it's really subjective.... It surely isn't explicit fatigue but if his recovery from squats is not great.... he might have residual fatigue 3-5 days after moving big weight in the squat...  What would be interesting would be finding someone who is well adapted to daily squatting (like an oly lifter) and to being training them in the sprints.   Then after some point drop the squatting and see if/how much performance increases.   

I think the bottom line is that sprinting at high speed involves hip hyperextension; something not very well trained in the weight room.  Maybe that training hip extension in a ROM shorter than what is necessary for sprinting will cause the athlete to run slower?

I think Avishek's point can be true without necessarily indicating that he shouldn't squat.  Perhaps at his current strength/speed levels squatting is very detrimental to speed.  Maybe he gets faster and his missing link is a lack of isometric quadricep strength or his block work is holding him back and he will venture back into the squat rack and add some strength.... But sprinting is really a biomechanically complicated movement that the "key" isn't the same for everyone.  It's not like that pedestrian activity of double leg jumping practiced by everyone on the board.... Sprinting is much more sophisticated. 

577
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« on: September 30, 2013, 09:46:26 pm »
Quote from: LBSS on September 30, 2013, 08:09:00 pm
for the first time in five years, i'm gonna try out a new gym.  :-X

i'm feeling weird/sad about it, but it's ridiculous for me not to have regular access to an indoor basketball court. i'll also try something new: short, frequent early-morning workouts just for jumping. low intensity, low volume, separate from my normal work out schedule. but i need those reps and i think i'll have free reign at the new gym from 7-7:30 AM or so.

gonna stick with the current track day/weights day split for a little while longer, but add in a bit more volume to squats in preparation for starting a strength/mass block soon. leaning toward a 5/3/1 variant with tentative goals of 10 lb weight gain, 385 squat, 405 DL, 275 bench and 185 OHP. all while working on movement efficiency in the movement i ostensibly care most about (i.e., jumping at a basketball hoop) at least 3-4 times per week.

and now, to the track.

Whats your previous max bench?  Dunno but it seems 275 on the bench is a bigger strength increase than your asking for in the squat.

Do you have a track near bathesda?  At the least I'll show you where the correct lines are...

578
Article & Video Discussion / Re: Squats vs. Performance
« on: September 30, 2013, 08:08:32 pm »
Quote from: Raptor on September 30, 2013, 07:02:17 pm
Yeah but that's maybe also a lack of training at top speed sprinting mechanics. If all you do is strength train and do acceleration work... then obviously you're missing out on that part.

I've personally never been a good accelerator... my best thing is top speed sprinting for some reason. Lack of strength comes to mind, to me it's much easier to stay isometrically contracted and bounce around. Same with one leg jumping - you just keep a stiff leg and jump.

I dont follow your post.  Also you can't really train top speed mechanics separate from acceleration.   To run at a certain top speed you have to accelerate to get to that speed.

Really, I think the quality of the sprinter is best described by something like "acceleration maintenance".  Because holding your top speed is somewhat difficult but really the difference is how late in the ground contact cycle where one can still accelerate.   Basically to run 11 m/s you have to first run 10 m/s.... whether or not you can accelerate while already going 10 m/s...  That's the quality that really won't get better with strength training.

I'm surprised you state that your skillful at top speed sprinting.... How do you know that?  Top speed mechanics requires a between stride relaxation that a lot of people are not capable of.

579
Article & Video Discussion / Re: Squats vs. Performance
« on: September 30, 2013, 06:34:00 pm »
You guys are missing one REALLY important point when it comes to top-speed and strength.  First, I want to reiterate that I think Avisheks claim that squatting caused his top speed to be drastically lowered is highly individual; most athletes I have seen training do not suffer a huge decrease if you simply add squatting to a program squatting....   

The truth is that adding squatting (unless one is REALLY weak) will usually also provide ZERO increase to your top sprinting speed.   Throw in the decreased recovery, perhaps minor overeating, lack of speed work, and I wouldn't be surprised if Avishek experienced a moderate drop in speed but I would bet it was less that he was doing something (squatting) which directly made him slower....  Moreso he was spending time and energy doing something which was not in itself helpful which took away from his functional work...  I think similar results would be seen if a sprinter decided to dedicate a large portion of their training to surfing....   Despite that I wouldn't make the claim that surfing lowers your top speed. 

The REALLY important point that is being missed in this discussion is that the squat does not have a poor relationship with top speed because it's quad dominant but because strength movements in general have a poor relationship to top speed. Improvements to top speed simply don't come in the weight room.  I don't care if you are doing glute-thrusts and deadlifts.... they are not going to make your top speed increase significantly (one caveat - you are REALLY weak...).   

All you have to do to realize this is train with world class women.  The times I ran last season make me essentially on par with world class females.  However, when I train with a 11.0 female vs an 11.0 male it's night and day as far as acceleration.  I get out soooooooo far ahead against the women.  But, if I let a woman hang around at 50m.... She doesn't fade away by 70m.  That's the big difference.  Women who run sub-11 do it with ridiculous speed-endurance/top speed mechanics.   That's why a female like Alyson Felix who can't start and is really a 200m/400m athlete can STILL jump in the 100m and run within a few 10ths of the fastest women in the world.... because top speed mechanics/speed endurance rules the day for women. 

The point is there are women who I can out accelerate but hold top speed far better than I despite the fact that I have a bigger squat, deadlift, and more relative quad strength, hamstring strength and glute strength....   

This fact is why people say "you can't teach speed".    I don't think that's necessarily true.... but you can't teach speed through traditional relative strength increases to large leg muscle movements.   

580
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« on: September 30, 2013, 09:07:02 am »
Quote from: Raptor on September 30, 2013, 04:06:33 am
Have you tried in the SVJ to get your arms back, not just "under" you? And if you get your arms back, try turning the thumbs towards the sky (internally rotate). Then try the SVJ again and see how it feels.

Agree with this.... Especially when you consider you are a low-bar squatter... You have a strong back and don't seem to be using it as much as you can on your jump.  You bend super low and roll onto your toes.... Not to get into low-bar/high-bar squatting.... But your SVJ is pretty similar to KF style... which will benefit more from HB squat, get those hamstrings, low back and glutes active rather than just jumping with your quads.

581
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« on: September 26, 2013, 08:41:28 am »
Quote from: LBSS on September 18, 2013, 10:22:50 pm
WEIGHT: ???
SORENESS: hamstrings, glutes
ACHES/INJURIES: head, mid-back a little after broad jumps
MENTAL STATE: meh

- warm up

- broad jump x 4
bad, just under 12y

- DL bound x 4,4,4
really bad, not enough lift at all, too horizontal

- SL bound x 6,6

- sprint 60m x 3
8.1, 8.2, 8.3; first one felt relatively fast, others slow

- sprint fly 30m x 2
3.8, 3.9; slow as balls, no explosiveness

- tempo 150m x 5

- stretch

fuck it.

How much correlation are you seeing to how you jump on a certain day and your sprint times?   Your squat has consistently improved; your also seemingly getting better at bounding but having more variable performance.   Good to see the focus on sprints, I think the improvement to your vertical is long term but will help.   By the way, no more correcting your to you're for me:

http://www.killtheapostrophe.com/

Lol.  Look forward to training with you, we will have to get a session semi filmed so others can get sense of the workout.

582
400m Sprinting or Shorter / Re: Sprint Videos
« on: September 26, 2013, 08:31:31 am »
Quote from: Mutumbo000 on September 26, 2013, 04:48:57 am

I was talking to my cousin who has a PB of 10.08 and he still runs 10.2s at 32 years of age. His dream was to play rugby but despite his speed he never made it into the NRL or any professional leagues. Anyway I asked him how fast he was when he started sprinting again and he said he was running around 10.7s/10.8s electronic at 21. My cousin did do athletics when he was younger but not that seriously and his main focus was always on rugby league until about 19. I know another guy who has a PB of 10.50 he's 25 now. He has state records for 100m in U16- 10.85 and U18- 10.62. The other state record holder that I've mentioned on here before is this Asian guy called Derek who has a 100m PB of 10.84 and his state U14 record for 100m is 11.53. The best juniors don't always turn into the best sprinters, which is what that whole video was suggesting. Also it's a lot easier to improve from say 13-12 seconds than it is from 12-11. It than becomes a whole lot more difficult to improve from 11-10.5, let alone 10.5-sub 10.

First:

Totally agree.  11-10.5 is about 10000x easier than 10.5 to 10.0 and not just because 10.0 is obviously done by a much smaller fraction of the population but because of the mechanics of running in a fluid atmosphere.   Improving your bench from 200 to 300 is obviously easier than from 300 to 400 but not to the degree that 11-10.5 is easier than 10.5 to 10.0 because as your run faster and faster the degree to which you have to battle wind resistance goes up with respect to the square of your velocity.  That's the main reason Usain Bolt is only to run 1 second faster [~10% improvement, ~ 12% improvement in top speed ] than a low-class athlete like myself even though he is far greater.  Bolt spends much much more of his energy just battling drag; if the race were in a vacuum he would be something closer to 40% faster (I've course I would be beating his old PR so I wouldn't complain). 

That drag factor is really important to remember when we compare ourselves to elite sprinters.  The start of course complicates analysis as well but if we just compare our top speed I think we can roughly (and pretty roughly) approximate our ability by multiplying our percent deficit by about 2-8 to figure out where we are off.  I think this also falls in line with other sports performances.   For example the world record in the clean and jerk for 200lb is like 510lb.  10% off or about 460lb is IMO much more impressive than 10% off the worlds best top speed [ a hundred meter time of about 10.4-10.8 depending on start/SE].   

Second:

Despite that.....  While juniors don't often see huge improvements in sprinting and converted American football players and the like don't always see huge improvements....  The untrained ALWAYS do.   That's why I think it's really important to distinguish between a fast junior and a fast untrained time.   For comparison just think of the 400m.   Everyone but 400m sprinters are essentially untrained in the 400m.   That's why you might find an unexperienced sprinter who has a background in American football who runs 10.x but doesn't get that much better when he focuses on sprinting.... but you will always get much faster in the 400m.   It's why I argue that Patrick Johnsons first race was the equivalent of a fast junior time where Asafa Powells was more similar to an untrained sprint.   That said I agree totally that fast juniors don't always turn into great sprinters BUT unlike what the video was suggesting... SLOW juniors never do.   Asafa was a relatively slow untrained but not a slow junior IMO.

 I also think that what the video suggests as genius isn't necessarily a closely guarded trade secret... any decent coach knows the basics of evaluating talent and potential not just the coaches at MVP.   Essentially there are a few reasons fast juniors don't became even faster senior level runners.  The first is simply that they are stupid/unmotivated and don't continue to work hard.  The second is that their speed comes at very ideal strength to weight ratios (the main manipulable characteristic).   If I have three juniors who all run 10.5 but one is visibly chubby, one is lanky and non-muscular and one is muscular and lean.....  The chubby one will be the best ( simply dropping fat weight is ALWAYS the easiest way to improve all relative strength tests - sprinting/jumping etc), the lanky one will be the next best (adding muscle will improve his strength to weight ratios which usually translates into improved times) and the muscular lean one will be able to improve the least.   I know this.  And I'm not a great coach.   

*** Note I really really back of the enveloped those calculations.  Like back of the back of the back of the envelope.   I had worked out the physics of it once but I don't know exactly where I had the results.  The point is that drag makes sprinting faster and faster much harder than lifting more and more weight.... It is really fun to try and quantify the expected difference ( I said 2-8x because running is not just top speed and the figure changes depending on your speed ) and I think it's a useful exercise to appreciate sprinting speed of the greats.   It's also why I suggest people running for general fitness run the 400m.  There are SO many more pathways to improvement which is really rewarding.  If you are not experienced in the 400m you really can take your time down easily by 10-15 seconds which is a HUGE margin and much more than 4x the margin you could improve in the 100m.

583
400m Sprinting or Shorter / Re: Sprint Videos
« on: September 26, 2013, 03:51:56 am »
Interesting on the Patrick Johnson story.  I find it a little hard to believe to be totally honest.  In some ways the story seems to suggest he was truly green, didn't know how to use blocks or spikes and ran a 10.47.  If that's true.... well then I can only say his coach surely doesn't deserve any awards.  I honestly can't see how someone who doesn't run can only record a PB of 0.5 seconds after years of training when compared to their first race.   Was the first race accurately timed?   People who truly don't run don't have enough speed endurance for the 100m.  They ACTUALLY get tired toward the end of the race.   The story talks about him racing people since he was 13 years old.... Just how "new" was he?   In Asafas case he was actually somewhat of a chubby geeky kid, rather than an athlete who just hadn't yet sprinted in an official capacity.  Either way I have always been in awe of Patrick Johnson, truly a great athlete.  His wikipedia page curiously lists him as the oldest man to run under under 10 seconds....  Despite the fact that Linford Christie did it while two years older than him in 1992 and 37 year old Kim Collins just did it recently.... I won't change it though.

584
400m Sprinting or Shorter / Re: Sprint Videos
« on: September 25, 2013, 04:53:57 pm »
I agree wtih what your saying especially for a sport like Rugby or AFL.  I don't know those sports too well but from what it seems they don't seem to be as obsessed with measurables like bench/squat/40yd as American football and they seem to have a strong component of team oriented success.  So if your on a really bad rugby team and your not extremely fast you might not look very good if your on a poor team....

Quote from: Mutumbo000 on September 25, 2013, 07:56:38 am
As far as an untrained 11.4 goes I wouldn't say it would turn heads. If the coaches knew about his brothers and family than they would give him a shot and think he's probably got a lot of untapped potential. But if you went to a track meet and just saw somebody running 11.4 for the first time you're not going to think that they are ever going to run 9.7s one day. In comparison the first time Australia's fastest man Patrick Johnson ever competed he ran 10.49! He went on to run 9.93. Like you've said before some athletes peak when they're 18 others peak when they're 35 it's impossible to tell when somebody is going to be at their best.

I think it really all depends on the 11.4  Patrick Johnson's first time competing surely wasn't his first time running... That's a big difference.  It really depends on the story you believe but from what I heard Asafa wasn't really a sportsman much at all.... He was just into cars and was essentially a chubby untrained kid who ran an 11.4.   That IS impressive.  Sure, I guess some coaches would assume if you aren't sub 11 as a 18 year old you have no chance so I guess Stephen Francis deserves some credit for identifying talent...   But given the mitigating circumstances around the performance AND his family background I don't think that it was a huge as a leap to assume he might have observed a talented sprinter as the stories claim.   


Quote from: Mutumbo000 on September 25, 2013, 07:56:38 am
Well USA has 300 million people and say 10% of them descend from West African roots. That's still 30 million. The laws of probability favours there being more talent in the USA than Jamaica. Aside from culture,  the other factor to consider with USA is that it's not the best environment for track. The southern states like Cali, Florida, and Texas are a production line for elite and world class sprinters. Go up North to places like Chicago, New York, Baltimore etc. you're not going to get the track times because of the conditions- cold, wet and snow.  Geographically Jamaica has better weather conditions for track than the majority of the USA does.
Edit- That's what I like about track though. It's objective. Sure you're racing against other people but at the end of the day if you're a recreational athlete than it just comes down to you against the clock.

I believe it's a bit short-sighted to think that West-African roots are a prerequisite for sprinting talent.   The law of statistical genetics favors that you don't have evidence that West-African roots are cause sprinting success.   Additionally, you can't argue that genetics are so important and then claim that the US has 30 million people with the same genetic predisposition as Jamaicans.   Jamaica is a tiny island populated rapidly during a short period of the slave trade.  The founder effect suggests that it's easily possible for Jamacians to have a distinct genetic advantage against African-Americans.  Personally, I think the genetic advantage is overblown.  Australias own fastest man is about the farthest you can be from genetically similar to Jamaicans!   From a scientists perspective I can tell you that there really isn't any evidence for any genetic difference which confers an advantage specific to sprinting or athleticism that has been observed in West African populations.  There are of course trends, most europeans tend to have shorter limbs and larger thoracic cavities relative to their height than most africans.   But these are general differences and their are numerous exceptions on both sides...  I think when you live in Los Angeles for a day and go to any urban track after 6pm in the school year and see about 200 kids ages 4 literally running till they are sick with a coach yelling in their face.... And not one kid is white... You appreciate just how much culture matters.






585
400m Sprinting or Shorter / Re: Sprint Videos
« on: September 25, 2013, 04:30:22 am »
Quote from: Mutumbo000 on September 24, 2013, 11:11:16 am

Genetics certainly comes down to it no doubt. However, there are parts of the video that I agree with. Go to any junior development program throughout the world and they'll focus on the best athletes at that age judged upon their times or their height at the time. I seen it growing up in basketball. Guys that weren't even that good and were tall only coz they had hit puberty a few years before everybody else. You could see they had facial hair and were solidly built already and they were still only 12 and 13. 5 years later they're tweeners when their whole life since U10 they've been touted as Australia's next best Centre. The trouble with these programs is that they regurgitate the same players year after year so if you're not in the state team by U12 by U18 it's still going to be pretty much the same team as it was in U12 because coaches have already invested so much time and resources into these players they don't want to let them go. By the time these players are in state league they've given up on basketball or they are out playing D2 or D3. 
Of the guys I know from my state that are playing professional basketball atm none of them were in a state team except Yan who played state since U16s as a bench player. 2 of the starters of the state team every year in that cohort from U10 to state league don't even play basketball anymore. In contrast you've got a guy like Adam Doyle who couldn't even play in D1 in juniors let alone a state team, yet now he's a development player in the NBL. With guys like Adam who persist with the sport sometimes it pays off but a lot of the time it won't, and the players end up quitting basketball and playing footy or just quitting sports altogether.


This is a good point when it comes to a weird sport like basketball where athleticism is semi-important and height is essential...   However, the only effect of most other sports is that players who could be very good don't get enough focus on them which deprives them of hitting their potential.  This doesn't cause a program to lose out on athletes who could actually be great.  Great athletes don't miss the cut cause they were born in November.  I grew up with Nate Robinson.  That guy was stronger and more explosive than all of us and the kids who were three and four years older than him from the time he was about 7 years old.   He was also straight up fearless.   The point is a really great athlete will still be good enough to shine at the junior level against athletes with "false advantages" liked advanced height cause they grew sooner.   In a sport like basketball this is a lot more important when a really talented kid might get written off despite his skill because he is "too frail" but in track or a sport like American football you WILL shine despite age/height disadvantages if you are a world class talent. 

Quote from: Mutumbo000 on September 24, 2013, 11:11:16 am

Usain Bolt is a freak. He could coach himself and he'd still be a world class athlete. I got a lot more respect for coaches like Charlie Francis and Stephen Francis who take guys like Ben Johnson and Asafa Powell from being mediocre sprinters to world class athletes. In terms of Jamaican sprint success it also comes down to culture. Track is their number 1 sport so their are a lot more opportunities for talent to be exposed. Even cricket is big in Jamaica and that's initially what Usain Bolt wanted to be- a cricket player. However, he wasn't that good at it and his coach obviously saw his raw speed so pointed him in the direction of track.


This Stephen Francis story of taking Asafa Powell from mediocre to world class is REALLY overblown.  Asafa Powell's entire family is fast.   His brother was already a world class sprinter by the time Powell was "discovered" and his Mom is probably faster than most people here.  Sure there is the story of him running 11.4 or something in high-school.  But from what I have heard he essentially got encouraged to sprint by his brother and grudgingly ran for one of his first times and didn't really know how to use blocks but was able to stand up and chase a fair amount of the kids down.  Recognizing that the kid might have some potential when they run 11.4 into a headwind without really training or knowing what they are doing isn't exactly rocket science.   Asafa Powell wasn't discovered before he had developed, he just didn't really know how to run!

Quote from: Mutumbo000 on September 24, 2013, 11:11:16 am

Who knows if Usain was a great cricketer when he was younger maybe he wouldn't of even pursued sprinting. Personally I think USA has a lot more sprinting talent than Jamaica does it just doesn't get expressed because people there are playing other sports or are too busy being gangsters.

Really... we are the ones too busy being gangsters????  Jamaicas murder rate in 2005 was 58/100k (almost all gang related gun-violence) the murder rate in the US hasn't been higher than 5/100k since pre 2000.   I think Jamaicans spend A LOT more time being gangsters than Americans. 


Quote from: Mutumbo000 on September 24, 2013, 11:11:16 am

West African countries like Sierra Leone, Mali, Liberia, and Senegal are going to be the next big talents in sprinting once they overcome poverty and civil wars in their countries. I think the point about the track and resources was also one about making the most of what you've got. Those West African countries I just mentioned have populations less than 10 million but all have National Records in the 10.0s and 10.1s. Imagine if the majority of their populations weren't living a struggle to survive, soccer wasn't their national sport, and they also had the access to  physios, doctors, sport scientists and exercise physiologists etc.

I don't think we will find out in the near future because overcoming poverty doesn't look like it's going to happen too fast.  But, I'd rather know what the 100th fastest runner is doing than the fastest if I was going to judge the countries potential.  I assume your suggesting that they have a genetic advantage.  Possible but as Jamaica has shown, culture is number 1 when it comes to sports.   Only Jamaica and a few other west indian countries really focus on track as a national sport.  That will always be number one. 

Pages: 1 ... 37 38 [39] 40 41 ... 58