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Quote from: maxent on December 17, 2018, 09:19:43 pm

i have to start from scratch now. any ideas? my first goal might be to actually run a km in the real world and then try to improve on the distance/time over time? any suggestions?

ah, since you put it that way, yea I definitely have some advice:

just relax and go run around. don't look at your watch much. instead, use it to record your activities. dissect the data afterwards. run harder some days. run lighter most days. sometimes do a short run. sometimes do a longer run. run strides at the end of most runs, just a few pick me ups for ~50m to finish with the nervous system firing. don't worry much about intervals now, ie if you want to do intervals, do it by feel: run hard for a bit (pick a spot from point A to B), then jog rest until you want to run again, repeat. do more runs outside than on the treadmill.

it's simple.. if you take an over analysis approach to it, you're going to be depressed, because running isn't easy, because the clock most always wins. let a gentle consistent approach improve your fitness for as long as possible. if you take this approach, you'll make more progress than trying to take a "2.5 lb added to the bar each week" approach, it's much more difficult with running. so be consistent and let it come. eventually you'll know when to do sharper workouts, ie very specific workouts & such targeting specific qualities, but right now it should be a very simple approach.

seriously, that's my advice.

I took your advice to heart and went for an evening run tonight. Didn't feel like doing another shitty track workout (tempo sprints around a circular track seem to have bothered my right glute and it was getting pretty painful). So i went to the local lake and just ran along the bike path, not looking at the watch just trying to stay at a comfortable pace. It was nice and pleasant and the surroundings were beautiful. I think this is the right way to go. When i finished the run i looked at my watch and saw i run a sub 6 minute pace for the 2.5km (which is what i decided to go for today). Not bad! And i ran within myself so i think i can do a bit better, cos in the last 600m i went a bit faster and saw my pace was around 5:something which i felt i could sustain once i'd warmed up. I think my initial attempts at outdoor running were taking too much to heart how hard it was to maintain a 'good' pace at the start, but if i was properly warmed into it, i prob could do a lot better i just need to be patient and let my body guide me thru the run.

TLDR: AM treadmill runs for cardio and PM lake run = win.

you just got into it but you're demotivated. lool. not good. stop stressing the clock.

lol i was running very relaxed/slow and just couldn't believe that even at that slowish pace of 5:something i was struggling to reach 500m .. talk about a reality check! It seems i've barely started to crawl when i thought i was well on my way to run 

as for heat.. run outside at night?

just might have to start doing that imho. either that or super early in the AM?

i don't get why you'd expect the treadmill to translate much.
- treadmill running = you're keeping up with something that's forcing you to move
- real running = you're pushing yourself entirely
- in racing, there's a bit of the 'keeping up with something' effect

i literally didn't think the disparity would be that huge. It's almost like there is zero carry over. The only thing i can think of is if you use the treadmill to work at the limit of your ability it might be training CV system but in a really unique way which won't transfer to real world running. So i think the only way treadmill running can help you is you already have a good amount of real world running training and the treadmill just keeps, in LBBS words, 'the embers burning'.

as for treadmill running being fools gold ... ya sure, if you're trying to equate it to real world running. but, it's definitely running, so it is still improving qualities important to running. it just doesn't translate directly, so you have to do real runs to realize any gains you'd get from the treadmill. some elites swear by the treadmill .. it's a small percentage, but some find it very effective. they do crazy runs on there.. but then they also hit the roads etc.

said it even better. you nailed it

Mo Farah has tons of clips of himself on the treadmill. He does some long runs on there (15-20 miles and such).

yea actually it was from watching mo's video about treadmill running that i thought i was on the right track. thanks mo, you gave me false belief   treadmill running probably just acts as some kind of recovery for him and not much. i have to start from scratch now. any ideas? my first goal might be to actually run a km in the real world and then try to improve on the distance/time over time? any suggestions?

So are we the only ones in the 600mg or more caffeine per day club? You, Kingfish, and me? Sometimes I feel like I need 500 mg caffeine just to make it to the gym.... this can't be good.

when i was dieting down i was using 600mg a day. Down to 500mg since now i use 200mg for the morning run (which does nothing, it's just habit.. i don't even feel anything but i believe it might help me perform/recover better slightly). For the squat session at lunch i use 300mg. Again don't really get anything out of it but if i didnt use it i'd perform worse so ya i just take it. My idea was to drop down after cutting but im trying to get my lifts to somewhere respectable first..

I jusg want to do a quick post on daily training as ive hit the 4 week mark today. Every morning i've done a treadmill run and a max squat session at lunch time. Last 2 days ive added an evening track session as well. Daily training is probably the best program for someone like me (=hard gainer). It's been freeing to just take every day as just another day, there are no special days in training which you dread or worry about 'recovery' since you train daily, every day is just another day. You  don't worry about recovery because your body just normalises being recovered. In a way what daily training has achieved that is most valuable is being very good at recovery. All those years babying my body in lieu of recovery just seems to be a huge waste of time in comparison because it turns out recovery is something trainable too.

In terms of gains, my warmup squat sets look super smooth, technically crisp and bar speed is incredible. I reach a point in every workout where things slow down and form begins to deteriorate, if someone else was more disciplined and patient then they could do more work under that threshold but i've got a timeline to adhere to so i've been pushing the envelop past that point every day.

The most impressive thing  so far is probably the development of lower leg strength and size which i attribute to daily running. Avoiding cardio seems to be the biggest mistake of all now, not only does it help recovery in a big way but it also helps develop the lower leg musculature which lifting never did.

In terms of actually getting fit, 4 weeks in, im still i'd say way below average for someone who plays sport. But im also holding a lot of water (due to chronic bad broken sleep) so when i figure out how to start sleeping better, i'll probably find my bodyweight drops and i'll be a bit closer to average fitness. Far away from PRs in the weight room still.

Lets see what the next 4 weeks bring!

one suggestion: for your harder efforts, run more by feel than by looking at the watch .. then look at the watch afterwards (at the end of the lap, or after the workout etc). use that feedback to tweak what you felt. if you look at your watch going fast, you're going to be alot less relaxed, run alot harder than you should, etc.. first put the distance in your head, that you are about to run, then take off but gradually, staying loose and just "going hard" but whatever "hard" is relative to that endpoint or lap distance you put in your head.

Thank you, that's solid advice! i will keep that in mind.

for slower runs, you can look at your watch right away. as long as it's relaxed, you can work on pacing etc by getting feedback from the watch.

today was the first time i looked at the watch while running 400m repeats and i saw for the first 200m i was doing a really fast pace (for me) of 3 min something. But as i progressed thru the run around 300m i could see my pace begin to fall off to around 4 mins.  it was pretty illuminating cos you know intuitively that you're slowing but to see the numbers really solidifies it for me. by the way, the way i feel on the last 100m - that's exactly how i play 99% of full court basketball games (yes only competition no pickup). so does this give any sort of notion on how to structure training to improve my game fitness?

so ya, don't get real-time feedback from your watch initially, unless it's just like a short stride or something (~50m) .. hard efforts w/ watch feedback, can be rough. have to get used to it.

on the 100m tempos i noticed the watch was nailing the 100m distance as i finished them, which was nice to see cos i had concerns about accuracy.

you'll probably make some solid improvement over the next few months if you keep it up .. you might be surprised.

im pretty much PR every single time i train (daily -- morning treadmill runs and evening track). but the frustrating part is my present fitness is prob a lot lower than what most basketball players would begin with (with no training). i dont even believe my training will actually really achieve anything about my bad fitness, think it might be genetic but if it does, i'll be super delighted to be surprised.

Bodyweight(AM): 81.7kg (13th dec)
Diet compliance: 2/2 days
Daily Squat: 27/27 days
Daily Run: 26/26 days
Basketball skill work:

Training:
AM Long run - 8.56km in 60 mins (PR)
PM BS 6x100, 6x112.5, 3x122.5, 2x130 (paused 1st reps)
PM Belted BS 1x132.5, 1x140, 4x120, 11x111
PM Speed run 4x400m
 
Notes:
Got the GPS watch and tested it out with some 400m repeats on grass. I took Mutombo's advice and found a nice marked out park in my area. Fresh lines and all. Was a bit self conscious at first cos they were doing some kind of social function at the club which overlooks the field.

 My fastest one was at 4:03 pace which i struggled to maintain i must confess. I was actually feeling great until around 300m when i just hit a wall and slow down a lot.  Does this tell you guys im really unfit?? If i had done another 400m repeat, i would have done a total of 2km but i didn't realise that at the time. So if my goal is to run a sub 20 5k, then it's probably never going to happen considering i can barely maintain a 4 min pace for 400m lol. Did anyone think i was this badly out of shape? Any words of wisdom welcome!

Bodyweight(AM): 83.0kg (11th dec)
Diet compliance: 0/0 days
Daily Squat: 25/25 days
Daily Run: 24/24 days
Basketball skill work:

Training:
AM Fast run ~ 5km total
PM squats 6x97.5, 6x107.5, 3x117.5, 2x127.5, 1x130 (paused the first rep on all these),
PM belted squats 1x130, 1x132.5, 1x135, 10x107.5

Notes:
First road run was fun albeit hard to adjust to not having a set pace. I can't wait to get my watch. Will do more running outside for sure.

Daily squatting is starting to 'work'. FINALLY. I attribute it to including the belt in the last workout. Spooky how quickly it has given a benefit.  The bar now feels like a feather on my back which i think is a consequence of the belt accelerating adaptions due to the increased IAP. I did a set of 10 with 107.5kg today and it fit inside a single insta clip so i did it at a good pace (no crazy rests between reps). I think the running has helped my body's ability to recover not just between training sessions but even between reps? Missed out on all those benefits of cardio all this time. What's funny is that my paused beltless has gone up too, did a top single with 130kg today for the first time in months. Nice. I'm definitely on the right track with this hybrid training mixing up the different factors.

Not to belabor the point but i think i understand the objection against belted squatting for optimal athletic gains - it's a syllogism of the form:

- powerlifters use lots of gear. powerlifters are not athletic - ergo gear does not build athleticism and it may detract from it

and i understand that perfectly well. But lets stop and think about hte typical powerlifter. They've probably never jumped (or sprinted or done anything remotely athletic) in their life. It's a sport which self-selects for those who don't have the skill or talent for actual athletic activity. Powerlifters are the rejects of the athletic world, those who can't athlete, powerlift. Huge generalisation i know but it's probably mostly true. Weightlifters are the gifted athletes among strength sports. Mediocre weightlifters are usually mediocre athletes.

Powerlifters train for minimal depth and do the slow lifts in an especially slow manner, agian, not what im talking about. If you use a belt and grind out every rep from start to finish with borderline depth, that's not going to build athleticism anymore (or less) than a straight up pause squat san belt. To get the athletic benefit out of the belt you want adequate depth AND a strong rebound which is faciliated by wearing the belt.

If you took the average person and trained them with a belt keeping in mind depth and bar speed you'd see more athletic gains than if they were using relatively lighter weights with no belt and/or paused (two extremes). the former would give the best carryover and the latter the least.