541
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: October 02, 2013, 09:02:46 am »
^ see my post just before yours, not talking about skill but strength
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542
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: October 02, 2013, 08:59:42 am »
I'm not disputing that skills training is essential. I agree that if you have movement efficiency then you're going to kick ass, and to get that you have to spend hours practicing. No argument there.
I'll also accept that lifting weights helps you (indirectly) tap into your potential athleticism. Even that it raises your ceiling for athleticism. But I dont think it does that in a primary way.
Here is the thing i'm really interested in, the lightweight guy who seems absurdly strong despite being light and weak looking, i'm interested in describing and understanding that kind of strength. How is it defined qualitatively and quantitatively? Like you can look at someones squat 1rm and that tells you how good they are at squatting. A SVJ tells you something about their ability to jump. And so on. But is there a measure for the inherent hardness strength quality i'm describing? It can't be connected to a bench 1Rm say because we find individuals who exhibit this hardness who dont even lift! Can you guys help me understand this particular kind of strength?
Is it even connected to gym strength? Take mutombo who walks into a gym for the first time and pulls 140kg. I feel as though that might be connected to the kind of strength i'm describing, a kind of natural, untrained (at least in the gym) strength. But maybe i'm conflating two different things there, my primary interest is in that hardness quality in a good basketball player. It's not to do with athleticism or skills, it's strength.
I'll also accept that lifting weights helps you (indirectly) tap into your potential athleticism. Even that it raises your ceiling for athleticism. But I dont think it does that in a primary way.
Here is the thing i'm really interested in, the lightweight guy who seems absurdly strong despite being light and weak looking, i'm interested in describing and understanding that kind of strength. How is it defined qualitatively and quantitatively? Like you can look at someones squat 1rm and that tells you how good they are at squatting. A SVJ tells you something about their ability to jump. And so on. But is there a measure for the inherent hardness strength quality i'm describing? It can't be connected to a bench 1Rm say because we find individuals who exhibit this hardness who dont even lift! Can you guys help me understand this particular kind of strength?
Is it even connected to gym strength? Take mutombo who walks into a gym for the first time and pulls 140kg. I feel as though that might be connected to the kind of strength i'm describing, a kind of natural, untrained (at least in the gym) strength. But maybe i'm conflating two different things there, my primary interest is in that hardness quality in a good basketball player. It's not to do with athleticism or skills, it's strength.
543
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / chasing athleticism -- W1D2
« on: October 02, 2013, 08:14:13 am »
Training
FS 1x120, 1x127.5, 1x130, 1x135 (PR)
BS 6x125, 5x125, 5Fx125B
OHP 6x40, 5x50, 4Fx60, 4x62.5, 0x65, 7x55 (PR), 9x52.5 (PR)
FS notes:
New warmup sequence felt good. I think 120 to 127.5kg makes more sense than 117.5 to 125. Ideally i'd like it to go 110 -> 120 -> 130 and thn the topset. I'll adjust my way up to that over the next few workouts, think an additive warmup sequence makes the most sense. Also I tried the form corrections I spoke about in my bar path thread. It's still not midfoot but the sets felt better. Give it time. I'm using hte new form for even my warmups now to really hone it in.
BS notes:
First set good. 2nd set got ruined by kids who lost their ball and wanted to look around the backyard. So my rest period lingered far too long and I wasn't ready mentally to do the 2nd set. They also wanted to watch me squat lol, which threw me off cause they were standing right infront of me and i'm not used to it. Anyway enough excuses. 3rd set with a belt was ok but I failed the 6th cause I didn't want to finish it with a egregagious squat morning which was to be. Maybe repeat this session on friday? We'll see how it goes. I may even do 127.5, 125 next time?
FS2 notes:
blah, not sure if i'll bother with these today with my recovery this week being so poor
upper to come
FS 1x120, 1x127.5, 1x130, 1x135 (PR)
BS 6x125, 5x125, 5Fx125B
OHP 6x40, 5x50, 4Fx60, 4x62.5, 0x65, 7x55 (PR), 9x52.5 (PR)
FS notes:
New warmup sequence felt good. I think 120 to 127.5kg makes more sense than 117.5 to 125. Ideally i'd like it to go 110 -> 120 -> 130 and thn the topset. I'll adjust my way up to that over the next few workouts, think an additive warmup sequence makes the most sense. Also I tried the form corrections I spoke about in my bar path thread. It's still not midfoot but the sets felt better. Give it time. I'm using hte new form for even my warmups now to really hone it in.
BS notes:
First set good. 2nd set got ruined by kids who lost their ball and wanted to look around the backyard. So my rest period lingered far too long and I wasn't ready mentally to do the 2nd set. They also wanted to watch me squat lol, which threw me off cause they were standing right infront of me and i'm not used to it. Anyway enough excuses. 3rd set with a belt was ok but I failed the 6th cause I didn't want to finish it with a egregagious squat morning which was to be. Maybe repeat this session on friday? We'll see how it goes. I may even do 127.5, 125 next time?
FS2 notes:
blah, not sure if i'll bother with these today with my recovery this week being so poor
upper to come
544
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: October 02, 2013, 07:51:17 am »
I get what you guys are saying. We all that know that one skinny lanky dude who is quick as fuck and not just quick but also incredibly strong ON THE COURT. As in that indescribable hardness quality where they feel immovable and hit like a ton of bricks even though they weigh like 160 or something. THATS the strenght quality i'm after. I dont give a damn about gym lifts, i'm sure the guy i'm talking about would struggle to bench his bodyweight for reps. And forget about squatting, he probably never tried that either. How do you get THAT quality of strength, is that trainable efficiecntly? how? and please dont tell me the answer is to lift weights because the guy i'm talking about didn't. And yes i know some people are born efficient but they've also trained to have that hardness, that physically tough play must be have a trainable component to it which needs to be tapped into before it's realised.
Vag I take issue with your idea that athleticm comes out of strength training. If you said it gives you potential to be athletic i'd be ok with. But i dont think it gives you athleticism, maybe increases your capacity to be more athletic?
Vag I take issue with your idea that athleticm comes out of strength training. If you said it gives you potential to be athletic i'd be ok with. But i dont think it gives you athleticism, maybe increases your capacity to be more athletic?
545
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: analyse my squat bar path
« on: October 02, 2013, 06:20:42 am »Form change is basically to do with knees. They go in at the start of the concentric, and then OUT as I go past the sticking point. This is new for me, it's the antidote to the squatmorning sickness I so desperately needed to cure.
you are using too much weight if you had to grind the knees to get the rep. uneven stress on the knee is not healthy specially when supporting near-max weight.
A lot of Chinese lifters do it and Dan Green also recommends it. IDK how to feel about it because what you say has also occurred to me as a potential trouble.<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y8yKSJbpFI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y8yKSJbpFI</a>
KF can you expain what is grinding the knees? i'm not sure what you mean.
I agree with joe though. The intentional knee-in push movement to initiate the concentric is something you see with all the top lifters, from Broz's to chinese olympians to top east european lifters. Dan Green is one proponent of it, his story is pretty interesting because he started out as a typical north american PL who noticed he was getting his ass handed to him by stronger, leaner, lighter russian lifters. He noticed they had massive quads and they used a very quad dominant squatting style, so he adopted their style too. I've always done this naturally but when you do it intentionally it somehow gives you more pop out of the bottom of a squat.
The other part is the knee out after passing the sticking point -- this is new for me, i got it from watching one of broz's lifters and suddenly it just clicked. Now here is the interesting part, the video of yours you linked, you actually do the knees out after sticking point motion too
Great minds think alike!As you come out of of the sticking point your knees go out. This is what I had been missing all along, it was the crucial thing. I knew my knees couldn't stay out the whole way ascent-to-descent, because there was that point at the bottom where my knees had to come in to get out of the hole. But what I didn't know, and what i've discovered is once i've got out of the hole, my knees going out give me that stability and uprightness which I really needed. The real breakthrough which I am hoping will work out for me, is applying this on descent. I'll test that today, will update what happens.
546
Pics, Videos, & Links / Re: beautiful squats
« on: October 01, 2013, 06:37:01 am »547
Nutrition & Supplementation / Applied Nutrition for Mixed Sports
« on: October 01, 2013, 04:17:26 am »Probably the best resource on nutrition for people in this forum. It's a full video lecture thing with slides, the above is just an excerpt. I'd like to do a review sometime when I get a chance to re-watch it again.
also, fao raptor ^
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Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: October 01, 2013, 03:04:47 am »
Thanks gents!
Well said, agree with everything ChrisM and Coges have said. I realised that in the best case scenario, this squatting stuff pays off big and I end up like that highly athletic spazz that used to play for the Lakers, forget his name, all the athleticism in the world but he couldn't become a good player despite getting many chances in his career and all the tools to become one. But that's not a best case I want. I should be constantly improving my skills because atm my skill deficit is much bigger than my athleticism deficit. Not to say i'm athletic, obviously i'm not, but right now my skills are rusty and far behind where they've been at my best. When I was a better played i used to play a lot, 3-4 times a week and even though I didn't gym, i could jump as high as I can now, off one leg. After taking up strength training, i transformed into a 2 leg jumper when all my life i was a 1 leg jumper. But I digress. My point is, i haven't done much athletically for my game, even though i can jump higher standing and can now dunk easily when i couldn't before, i'm not as good a shoot blocker as I used to be, nor as good at beating the defender on a drive. I'm sure if I work hard on those things I can be better than before, but it hasn't occured automatically as I hoped it would have.
One of the guys I was playing with is a hockey player, so it's not like he's kicking my ass because of more practice. The other guy is a legit baller so i could accept that argument but the hockey player was scoring on me at will and i'm taller etc. I just feel like no matter what I do in the gym, if my bench and press goes up, my squat goes up, i wont have that hardness strength quality you find in strong players. I played 1-1 with one guy last year who had that in spades, when he was guarding me, it felt like his feet were bolted to the ground, i couldn't leverage him despite having about half a foot of height on him. I guess that game specific strength which is what I really need, it comes from playing hard ME type ball against other strong players? I need to seek that out somehow.
Morning bodyweight is 196.5lb. I hope I can do better in october, would be awesome to be under 187/85kg but that's probably not realistic with my squatting focus right now. We'll see what happens, maybe I wont get stuck and can wrap up the goals in 2-3 weeks or something.
Well said, agree with everything ChrisM and Coges have said. I realised that in the best case scenario, this squatting stuff pays off big and I end up like that highly athletic spazz that used to play for the Lakers, forget his name, all the athleticism in the world but he couldn't become a good player despite getting many chances in his career and all the tools to become one. But that's not a best case I want. I should be constantly improving my skills because atm my skill deficit is much bigger than my athleticism deficit. Not to say i'm athletic, obviously i'm not, but right now my skills are rusty and far behind where they've been at my best. When I was a better played i used to play a lot, 3-4 times a week and even though I didn't gym, i could jump as high as I can now, off one leg. After taking up strength training, i transformed into a 2 leg jumper when all my life i was a 1 leg jumper. But I digress. My point is, i haven't done much athletically for my game, even though i can jump higher standing and can now dunk easily when i couldn't before, i'm not as good a shoot blocker as I used to be, nor as good at beating the defender on a drive. I'm sure if I work hard on those things I can be better than before, but it hasn't occured automatically as I hoped it would have.
One of the guys I was playing with is a hockey player, so it's not like he's kicking my ass because of more practice. The other guy is a legit baller so i could accept that argument but the hockey player was scoring on me at will and i'm taller etc. I just feel like no matter what I do in the gym, if my bench and press goes up, my squat goes up, i wont have that hardness strength quality you find in strong players. I played 1-1 with one guy last year who had that in spades, when he was guarding me, it felt like his feet were bolted to the ground, i couldn't leverage him despite having about half a foot of height on him. I guess that game specific strength which is what I really need, it comes from playing hard ME type ball against other strong players? I need to seek that out somehow.
Morning bodyweight is 196.5lb. I hope I can do better in october, would be awesome to be under 187/85kg but that's probably not realistic with my squatting focus right now. We'll see what happens, maybe I wont get stuck and can wrap up the goals in 2-3 weeks or something.
549
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: analyse my squat bar path
« on: September 30, 2013, 11:10:12 am »
I HAVE MADE A BREAK THROUGH!!
I figured it out today, partially in the lab and later on paper. Here is how I fix my off midfoot barpath on the descent - knees go out and forward. This will keep me balanced over midfoot instead of drifting far too forward.
The way I discovered this is actually by doing that on the ascent and realising the same principle should apply on teh descent! On ascent, after passing the sticking point, my knees went out, and this kept me from squat morning.
New technique
So here is how I do a technically correct midfoot squat on paper for next time. Keep weight on heels, stand upright make sure i'm not leaning at all. Brace abs etc etc. Then begin descent, knees break out and forward. At the bottom position my knees are held out. As I come out of the bottom, my knees come in to give me quad/glute drive out of the bottom, as i pass the sticking point, knees go back out. So it's a sequence of knees out, knees in, knees out in that order. Next time i'll have caps of bar path.
I tried this technique partially today, only just for ascent and it made a big difference, suddenly my squat became quad dominant, i remained upright and i could pop out and lock out like a boss. When I make the change on the descent, it will give me a better bar path on the descent which means i'm in a better position at the bottom, which means i'm going to have a much better position on the ascent. b00m! problem solved.
to test this out, i will put my money where my mouth is, next time i squat, which follows after 1 days rest, i'm going to put 135kg on the bar and front squat it ATG without a belt. Keep in mind just 3 days ago i got buried by a 132.5kg FS and today I got it without much fuss, so it's not just some bullshit internet analysis, i've video proof to back it up.
I figured it out today, partially in the lab and later on paper. Here is how I fix my off midfoot barpath on the descent - knees go out and forward. This will keep me balanced over midfoot instead of drifting far too forward.
The way I discovered this is actually by doing that on the ascent and realising the same principle should apply on teh descent! On ascent, after passing the sticking point, my knees went out, and this kept me from squat morning.
New technique
So here is how I do a technically correct midfoot squat on paper for next time. Keep weight on heels, stand upright make sure i'm not leaning at all. Brace abs etc etc. Then begin descent, knees break out and forward. At the bottom position my knees are held out. As I come out of the bottom, my knees come in to give me quad/glute drive out of the bottom, as i pass the sticking point, knees go back out. So it's a sequence of knees out, knees in, knees out in that order. Next time i'll have caps of bar path.
I tried this technique partially today, only just for ascent and it made a big difference, suddenly my squat became quad dominant, i remained upright and i could pop out and lock out like a boss. When I make the change on the descent, it will give me a better bar path on the descent which means i'm in a better position at the bottom, which means i'm going to have a much better position on the ascent. b00m! problem solved.
to test this out, i will put my money where my mouth is, next time i squat, which follows after 1 days rest, i'm going to put 135kg on the bar and front squat it ATG without a belt. Keep in mind just 3 days ago i got buried by a 132.5kg FS and today I got it without much fuss, so it's not just some bullshit internet analysis, i've video proof to back it up.
550
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: analyse my squat bar path
« on: September 30, 2013, 11:05:01 am »True raptor. I'd been meaning to ask KF about that. How important is your kalf training to your squatting prowess? Would you recommend I start to train my calves too if i'm after a stronger more athletic squat?
not important but more lean mass on the calves is always a good thing. helps keep your ankles healthy.Respeck. If you ever wanna try your hand at internet coaching im putting my hands up as a keen volunteer. Would love to have VMO's like that, i didnt' even know such a muscle existed lol
i spent most of my time in the 6-8reps x 6-8sets when i was lifting up to 385s (2.0-2.1BW max).
my vertical summit journal is full of those rest-pause squats without unloading the bar.. very high volume. long rest. protein overload.
Noted. I am already on the 6s volume. I usually 4-5 sets of 6s total. I dabbled with 8s and 10s too when I was doing a mass gain, they were cool. I have really really small muscles around my knees, my calves are small as are my vmos and hamstrings near the knee. My hamstring higher up is massive though (relative to my leg). Would like more mass around my knee for stabilisation at the bottom of a squat. I think that will really help me. If i'm right about that, putting on some knee sleeves will give me a lot of benefit (i dont have any but that's my theory).
551
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« on: September 30, 2013, 10:38:23 am »
yea, his squat is athletic, i've siad much the same to LBBS. I look down on LBBS but LBSS squat is nice as, probably my favorite on this site. If I were him, i'd keep it as it is and build my FS up as an assistance, no need to mess with a good thing. highbar is cool and all, but if your BS is athletic, just adding FS will get you whatever you're missing.
552
Article & Video Discussion / Re: Squats vs. Performance
« on: September 30, 2013, 08:56:35 am »
It's obvious to me if you're a an athlete in a competitive sport you benefit from having larger muscles. And if lifting weights helps you build mass then they're a useful tool. This is without looking at the strength/performance aspect which I don't really understand very well. But if you have large strong quads, you are a better basketball player in the post, you become a strong immovable object when you plant those bad boys down and hold your position. If you're a stick like me, regardless of what you're squatting and what it does for your SVJ (wonders), it doesn't mean anything in the real world of competitive basketball. Yes i'm bitter and cynical but whatever, idgaf.
553
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / chasing athleticism -- W1D1
« on: September 30, 2013, 07:49:37 am »
Training
FS 1x117.5, 1x125, 1x130, 1x132.5 (PR)
BS 2x6x122.5, 3x127.5B, 6x122.5B
BP 8x83.5 (PR)
SST (5 mins)
FS notes:
I'm a dickhead and my recovery was shit etc etc, esp the basketball i played yesterday which usually WRECKS me badly for lifting. So i wasn't prepared for today by any means. But. I destoyed it! Made z big form breakthrough today which spared me from having a shit workout. I'm a better squatter after this workout than I was before it. Isn't that amazing? I had to stop myself at 132.5kg and say save it for backsquats, otherwise I was gonna put 135kg on the bar and try it with a belt, but decided against it because I don't need to use that weapon out of my armory just yet, my FS should be at least 140kg before I think about messing around with a belt.
Form change is basically to do with knees. They go in at the start of the concentric, and then OUT as I go past the sticking point. This is new for me, it's the antidote to the squatmorning sickness I so desperately needed to cure.
BS notes:
The form breakthrough from FS carried over nicely to BS as well. Seems everything has come together for me technique wise now. From shoes to form to patience with gains, i'm ready to make some decent progress now. I will be ambitious and add 2.5kg all the way up to 3x6x127.5kg on friday. The following week maybe i'll switch to 2kg jumps but for now i'm feeling good about 2.5kgs.
FS2 notes:
Omitted higher rep fs sets today. I dont wanna dig too big a recovery hole lest I can't get out for wednesdays workout. I'll do it then though if i feel good.
upper to come later tonight.might edit in a bit about the form breakthru as well just for record keeping sake.
SST notes:
I just went and shot around, dribbled, nothing special, but each time i'll def do a little bit more. Over weeks and months it will become something significant but for the moment doing anything at all is better than not, so that's the working justification and motivation. My knees didn't feel like I could do max effort jumping so I didn't push it, when my body feels good i'll do 5 SVJ and 5 RVJ, and that's it, just enough to get some improvement but not too much to hurt intefere with achieving lifting goals.
Re W1D1 restart.
I know i seem to restart every week lol but this time it's srs. It's week 1 of eating properly, going low fat mode, october will be a perfect diet AND training month. I'll keep carbs medium to high as I see fit, obviously too many will hurt fat burning but too little will kill performance so i'll err on the side of conservative. That means 100-150g, nothing crazy. also dont worry im not going zero fat or anything, i eat a lot of fish oil (~10g day) and i'll have 3 whole eggs daily, and a bit of olive oil to cook my chicken and veges in but that's about it, no pizzas or fatty foods, no fast food at all, etc.
FS 1x117.5, 1x125, 1x130, 1x132.5 (PR)
BS 2x6x122.5, 3x127.5B, 6x122.5B
BP 8x83.5 (PR)
SST (5 mins)
FS notes:
I'm a dickhead and my recovery was shit etc etc, esp the basketball i played yesterday which usually WRECKS me badly for lifting. So i wasn't prepared for today by any means. But. I destoyed it! Made z big form breakthrough today which spared me from having a shit workout. I'm a better squatter after this workout than I was before it. Isn't that amazing? I had to stop myself at 132.5kg and say save it for backsquats, otherwise I was gonna put 135kg on the bar and try it with a belt, but decided against it because I don't need to use that weapon out of my armory just yet, my FS should be at least 140kg before I think about messing around with a belt.
Form change is basically to do with knees. They go in at the start of the concentric, and then OUT as I go past the sticking point. This is new for me, it's the antidote to the squatmorning sickness I so desperately needed to cure.
BS notes:
The form breakthrough from FS carried over nicely to BS as well. Seems everything has come together for me technique wise now. From shoes to form to patience with gains, i'm ready to make some decent progress now. I will be ambitious and add 2.5kg all the way up to 3x6x127.5kg on friday. The following week maybe i'll switch to 2kg jumps but for now i'm feeling good about 2.5kgs.
FS2 notes:
Omitted higher rep fs sets today. I dont wanna dig too big a recovery hole lest I can't get out for wednesdays workout. I'll do it then though if i feel good.
upper to come later tonight.might edit in a bit about the form breakthru as well just for record keeping sake.
SST notes:
I just went and shot around, dribbled, nothing special, but each time i'll def do a little bit more. Over weeks and months it will become something significant but for the moment doing anything at all is better than not, so that's the working justification and motivation. My knees didn't feel like I could do max effort jumping so I didn't push it, when my body feels good i'll do 5 SVJ and 5 RVJ, and that's it, just enough to get some improvement but not too much to hurt intefere with achieving lifting goals.
Re W1D1 restart.
I know i seem to restart every week lol but this time it's srs. It's week 1 of eating properly, going low fat mode, october will be a perfect diet AND training month. I'll keep carbs medium to high as I see fit, obviously too many will hurt fat burning but too little will kill performance so i'll err on the side of conservative. That means 100-150g, nothing crazy. also dont worry im not going zero fat or anything, i eat a lot of fish oil (~10g day) and i'll have 3 whole eggs daily, and a bit of olive oil to cook my chicken and veges in but that's about it, no pizzas or fatty foods, no fast food at all, etc.
554
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: September 30, 2013, 07:13:59 am »
^When I achieve the goals in my sig, i'll be happy to switch focus onto mainly sports specific training. But perhaps I might just add a minute or two of SST to every gym training day? Better than nothing?
555
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: September 30, 2013, 03:02:24 am »Are you serious?!?!?! You don't think dropping 20+ pounds (forgive me I'm American lol) will help?! Man, dropping I noticed a difference dropping 7lbs and maintaining the same strength levels.
Relatively speaking i'll be better compared to where I am now? Maybe a bit. But relative to other people? Probably still going to be average
The 2 guys i was playing with were killing me and neither can be said to be very athletic. I'm pretty disillusioned now. Admittedly i only rarely ever do anything physical outside my squat rack. So i might be able to improve a little on movement efficiency by regular practice, but i was hoping to be quite a bit faster than I was yesterday. Maybe I could say it's from fatigue from squatting etc etc. But if I weigh 20+lb less then I'm instantly a lot weaker in the post. So i'll not get anything useful out of my training except maybe a wicked SVJ, which counts for nothing much I must now admit.Quote
Also, how often are you training specifically for basketball or quickness? If you aren't a 'natural' athlete or player then you'll need to work on those almost as often as lifting. Just my observations from watching other players for years.
Once a fortnight. I suck at lifting as much if not more, so I need to devote a lot of time and effort to it, to even get modest gains, it's not like I can afford to compromise there.