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Messages - maxent

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526
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: January 09, 2019, 06:25:39 am »
But it doesn't shift the dissonance. If i'm at low miles (because athletic background) b/c im slow then it would make sense to progress my speed,  no? And yet of the the various variables that's one you're being told to go backwards in.

Literally all of my objections amount to this, is it ok to do a 40 minute run where you're only getting 5km of distance covered? how does this help make me a faster runner? also if you look at basketball studies, the average HR for a player over the entire match (including dead periods) is 160-180bpm. So would it make sense to do more training closer to that range than say 140. I know what the argument is for long slow running (if you accept it and even if i did) it runs into a wall cos weekly mileage wud be so low to not offer much benefit to faster runs. tbh i can see how it 'could work' if you were sufficiently fast then going submax you can still get a decent amount of km done

527
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: January 09, 2019, 05:58:49 am »
I spose it's the cognitive dissonance of internalising all these maxims:

- more miles more good
- slower is good

and if you accept them as is - then for a beginner it's saying do something impossible because you have to get a lot of miles and yet you're being told to do it very very very slowly (in an absolute sense). you can't do both. you can do more miles but you are already slow to begin with. take andrew's pace for his 45 min long run, that's not far from my tempo pace. i can see how it would work for him to do a submax run at that pace and still get enough miles in.

unpickling another assumption is prob that you're better than average a runner (starting out or whatever)  from the get-go and able to get a reasonable amount of weekly mileage strictly observing the above maxims. I watched one video where the guy suggested getting a weekly mileage of 100 miles (i think that's around 160km but idk) - but lets figure out what that averages to per day, 22km? even half that is way too much (and i did that for a while) - the only way i could get 10-15km/day was doing two-a-days and i don't think that was sustainable (for me).

but yea im glad i thought to write all this stuff cos it didnt make sense to me and now having written it all out i can see why, the rules are mutually contradictory. literally doesn't work unless you're already a runner and in which case you don't need any rule to tell you how to structure your training..

if someone could tell me how to get to my running goal of a sub 20 5k while doing at most 5km/day then i'd be happy to listen. obviously orthdox running would have me doing 50-100km a week and yea that's not my thing not right now .. maybe in the winter (i actually would love to do a winter of just focusing on running)

528
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: January 09, 2019, 02:22:27 am »
Today i was too weak to squat a 3RM of 150kg (got 3x147.5kg yesterday) and im prob gonna put it down to the hard run this morning eating into my performance. However the funny thing is i was able to progress my 10rm just fine, getting 10x130kg which is a lifetime PR (and the 127.5kg was the same yesterday and so on forth). Plug in the 1rm calculator app on my phone and it says i shud have a 172.5kg max - lol yea alright, that's why i racked 150kg after the first rep cos i didn't think i would get a clean 2nd leave alone a 3rd. So what's going on? It's just the same thing we've been talking about -- the illusion of progress / productive training by doing something easier just to say you're making progress even tho there is almost zero translation between longer sets and runs to shorter more intense ones. I buy in to the longer rep sets though, cos it's nice to make progress regularly even if it's just fools gold to take it for anything other than what it is. something holistic would just make regular PRs as part of training and the problem with longer runs (and being specific here duration) just runs into the same problem that as you increase speed it becomes harder, so where is the progress?

529
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: January 09, 2019, 02:16:19 am »
Quote from: Coges on January 09, 2019, 12:06:59 am
Coming from someone who's not a runner but tried to join the "squad", running slow is an absolute mind fuck. It's embarrassing, there's no ego to it and sometimes you can be confused with someone who broke into a fast walk. It absolutely works though.

just don't understand the point bro. why spend an hour doing something you could get done in less than half the time. and if you're just going for distance then at my version of SLOW SPEED it would take literally 2 hours or more. I can understand mo farah doing a long run of 2 hours and doing like a good fraction of a marathon. at my slow speed i would be there all day to get to 10km .. no sense made whatsoever

530
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: January 09, 2019, 12:30:24 am »
Ok lemme summarise what i'm actually trying to claim here. I think (internet?) running dogma has behind it two driving beliefs:
- mileage per week (more is better)
- slow long runs (slower is better)

and im finding that this running dogma has some underlying assumptions which are not explicitly stated but once accounted for make it infeasible for me: 
 - it presupposes you're mainly a runner which necessarily entails BEING an actual runner
  -- training only running,
  -- having a runners build (light)


these assumptions don't apply to me (anymore?) and teh heavier and weight trained (powerful etc) i get the further i go from these principles because lots of mileage while training other things (daily squat max, basketball in-season training, ) just don't see it working out. It also doesn't suit me pyschologically because if training economy is at a premium (and it very much is) - i dont have the training time for following orthodox running good practices above..

gotta go, but im not saying orthodox running isn't the right way for a runner. im claiming it's unworkable for me having tried it and finding it doesn't suit me. i was running pretty much intuitively to start with but now im going to go back to that....

Plus andrew all your arguments for long slow running - i just hear do bike / rowing instead, much less beating up of joints and easier to fit into normal (not solely running) training!
edit, but the thing which really cofnuses me about the dogma is the idea that 'longer runs' build fitness but these people intentionally leave out what they mean by long - is it duration? is it miles? if it's both then sorry i can't do it. you'd make every beginner run LONGER just because they're slow runners initially. how does that make sense? if it's only duration then why dont you fucking say so? why so vague? useless. now if it's duration if i take 2 hours to do a 8km run say, does that 'work' when i cud have done 5km in 25 minutes and gone home. im sure a good running coach woudl be able to answer my questions and even help me out but im kinda done trying to unravel running dogma (my youtube recommendations are like 99% running spam now which im already sick of). tbh im not sure these ppl have any secret sauce about running, their advice comes from ppl who are doing the same thing over and over and it's not clear what part of that advice is good and what just works because doing anything a lot will work ..

531
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / chasing athleticism - summer 19
« on: January 08, 2019, 07:52:47 pm » 
Bodyweight(AM): 84.4kg (9 Jan)
Diet compliance: 5/5 days
Daily Squat: 53/53 days
Daily Run: 53/53 days
Basketball skill work:
Morning:
 Fast TM run - 5km total (see notes) @ 4:46/km pace


Noon:
  BS 6x120, 1x155, 1x150, 10x130(PR)
  BX 14x70kg(+band, PR)

Evening:
 

Notes:
  • First TM run at the gym. I just wanted to check it out, in theory it should be better because of A/C and better commercial treadmill. In practice it was okay but nothing great. Ran 1km at 12.5-12.6km, shoe lace came undone, did it up and ran another 3km at 12.6km/hr (4:46/km). Took a rest for a minute and did another km just faster (4:27/km) than my current race pace goal of 4:30/km. Done. Hard run, but, feels more productive than wasting my time with pointless runs i'd been doing too much of with no concept of progression. I need to know every thing i do in training has a purpose and running lost that along the way when i got seduced by slow running. The idea you can do it easier and get benefits sounds good on paper i must admit. It's prob fine for runners who just need to autoreg and limit their training intensity. It doesn't apply to me because im not a runner with that problem. 
  • Reconsidering whether it was my aerobic ability or my anaerobic ability that limits my performance in basketball. What if i have got it wrong and my aerobic fitness was fine the whole time but i needed to focus on anaerobic? These harder fast runs are probably better for training both though, so that's another plus point.

532
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: January 08, 2019, 12:20:38 am »
sorry that was per km pace not miles. I dont know what a mile is  :wowthatwasnutswtf:

i can do real world running at slow pace better but on TM it's harder getting a good warmup b/c it's locking you into a speed at all times. but lately running any pace just doesn't seem feasible .. im not sure why, my calf starts bugging out. it might be an over-use thing going on
Thought about it more and im pretty sure running has been good to me but ive reached the point of diminishing returns with it very quickly b/c of competing recovery resources. Something like limiting my daily running to 5km but trying to improve speed will help me more. To get fitness i won't get it from running but perhaps from a workout like the following:
- Treadmill run (or road if i run to the gym)  30 min (at around 5-6min/km pace)
- Row 30 min (for a given HR goal even tho i don't trust these gadgets for that .. will figure it out somehow)
- Bike 30 min.

That's a 90 minute 'long' cardio workout without the problems of trying to do a long run at a too slow pace that the total mileage is embarrassingly low (like 10-12km). It has better carry over to bball because the running is more specific to the way i feel during games (ded lol) and with the cross training of the rowing for upper body and bike to take fatigue out of beating up joints that running more would entail. win win?

533
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism - summer 19
« on: January 07, 2019, 10:40:04 pm »
Quote from: adarqui on January 07, 2019, 09:40:01 pm
Quote from: maxent on January 07, 2019, 08:02:49 pm
Quote from: Coges on January 07, 2019, 07:52:58 pm
Quote from: maxent on January 06, 2019, 09:10:03 pm
The whole idea of 'easy running' seems to be fantasy. no part of running right now is easy, even warming up i just wanted to give it up 5 minutes in.\

Mate I can speak from experience here that it does in fact get easier. Not sure I ever got to the 'easy running' part but once I got past the first few minutes it got a whole lot easier.

Not sure if it gets easier but it gets managable but if your mindset is that 'this should be easy' then you'll be defeated even before you start. I think that's where im struggling with atm, cos if you go into a run thinking this will be the hardest thing then you can deal with almost anything running wise. But if you go into it expecting ease then you're not going to be prepared for it and it will be a slog. It's kind of how you frame it. When im squatting i expect every rep to be hard and it usually is that hard but you get it done. If i expected it to be ez then i'd never get thru it because it's not the right mental frame to complete the exercise

it's different with heart muscle (and capillary density). it responds well to very relaxed, low intensity, longer duration (30+ minutes) running.

45 minutes is my sweet spot for very light runs which still improve my aerobic capacity, without stressing me at all.

if you can walk at an easy pace, then you can run (albeit slowly) at an easy pace. for strong/elite runners, their slow pace looks very fast. that's why people get confused. an elite runner can jog 6:30 min/mi pace for example, at like absolutely no effort.

most running should be easy. the mistake most people make is not realizing how easy, easy, really is.

my preferred pace for most easy runs is 9:30-10:30 min/mi for 30-90 minutes. that's very slow.

if you take your squat mindset to running, then you are a sprinting, not running.. :D

I think i made some progress understanding wtf is going on with my schizophrenic running lately. This morning treadmill run, I start warming up at 6km/hr which is the lowest of the hotkey speed buttons that are not a walk (it goes 3, 6 then 9). So every 15s i increase the speed by 0.2-0.5km/hr .. usually only 0.2km/hr after teh getting up to around 7km/hr.  I take about 5 minutes to work up to 9.2km/hr which is a 6:30ish pace. And at 5 minutes in im like, yea this sucks, my right calf is complaining and ive got a crazy pump (on R leg mind you) and i just want to stop and quit running for good and say it's not for me. Mo farah's warmup sucks. Im prob better off going from zero to 10km/hr than this. tbh.

Around about 10 minutes if i stick around ive bumped the speed up to 10.2km/hr or so, now suddenly my form changes (im still not srue if form is now better or worse at slower speeds?) but running is easier the faster i go. So it almost seems like if im going anything below a speed my form is inefficient/unsustainable. Above that speed and im fine, i can run better/longer and now im tasking my cardiovascular system instead of my mental system.

It's almost as if i can do a long tempo at 10km/hr but trying to stay below that speed and it's torture. And of course it's a fine line because if i cross say 11km/hr now it's hard work but it feels more productive all the same. It's a struggle for me to maintain 12km/hr which is just a 5 minute pace. It's almost as if when i started doing these longer/easier runs i just got weaker (mentally) and im no longer challenging myself with hard runs but instead im torturing myself with slower runs. I think from here on it makes zero sense to do any more long/slow running. If what you say is true that longer runs build fitness better then i should just do that but not run, bike or row instead. I think that will suit me because because i can't seem to figure out the sweet spot of running slow enough without having form/mindset problems.

534
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism - summer 19
« on: January 07, 2019, 08:26:54 pm » 
Bodyweight(AM): 84.2kg (8 Jan)
Diet compliance: 4/4 days
Daily Squat: 52/52 days
Daily Run: 52/52 days
Basketball skill work:
Morning:
 TM Run 5km 28:36


Noon:
  BS 6x120, 1x152.5, 3x147.5, 10x127.5(PR)
  BX 13x70kg(+Bands, PR)

Evening:
 

Notes:
  • Bit of a carb up last night.

535
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism - summer 19
« on: January 07, 2019, 08:02:49 pm »
Quote from: Coges on January 07, 2019, 07:52:58 pm
Quote from: maxent on January 06, 2019, 09:10:03 pm
The whole idea of 'easy running' seems to be fantasy. no part of running right now is easy, even warming up i just wanted to give it up 5 minutes in.\

Mate I can speak from experience here that it does in fact get easier. Not sure I ever got to the 'easy running' part but once I got past the first few minutes it got a whole lot easier.

Not sure if it gets easier but it gets managable but if your mindset is that 'this should be easy' then you'll be defeated even before you start. I think that's where im struggling with atm, cos if you go into a run thinking this will be the hardest thing then you can deal with almost anything running wise. But if you go into it expecting ease then you're not going to be prepared for it and it will be a slog. It's kind of how you frame it. When im squatting i expect every rep to be hard and it usually is that hard but you get it done. If i expected it to be ez then i'd never get thru it because it's not the right mental frame to complete the exercise

536
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism - summer 19
« on: January 06, 2019, 09:10:03 pm » 
Bodyweight(AM): 83.7kg (7 Jan)
Diet compliance: 2/2 days
Daily Squat: 51/51 days
Daily Run: 51/51 days
Basketball skill work:
Morning:
  TM Run 5km, 30min


Noon:
  BS 6x120, 1x150, 3x145, 10x125(PR)
  BX 12x70(+band, PR)

Evening:
 

Notes:
  • 3 days of eating clean and bw looks better.
  • Another hot morning smh. Next time it's a cool one i'll go for a nice long run, promise.. 
  • The whole idea of 'easy running' seems to be fantasy. no part of running right now is easy, even warming up i just wanted to give it up 5 minutes in. I think basketball reintroduction is competing with the same neuromuscular system resources as running and while my CV isn't been challenged .. the former is at the limit. My running goals might not be realistic for in-season unless some drastic adaptions to basketball occur over the next couple of weeks to facilitate cross-training.  If something doesn't work itself out i might need to do my cardio another way (rowing or cycling perhaps) b/c running is just too similar and demanding to basketball and vice versa

537
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / chasing athleticism - summer 19
« on: January 05, 2019, 08:53:46 pm » 
Bodyweight(AM): 84.3kg (6 Jan)
Diet compliance: 1/1 days
Daily Squat: 50/50 days
Daily Run: 50/50 days
Basketball skill work:
Morning:
  Ez TM Run - 30 min, 4km


Noon:
  BS 6x120, 3x142.5, 1x150, 10x122.5(PR)
  Dips 3x8x20kg
  1 arm farmers walks for QL 
  BX 10x70(+band, PR)


Evening:
  Hoops workout

Notes:
  • Hot morning, not sure what kind of run i'll do. Maybe an EZ one..

538
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: New year new me
« on: January 05, 2019, 08:28:18 pm »
Quote from: gukl on January 04, 2019, 04:13:01 pm

Been enjoying my running a lot these days and probably going to sign up to the city 10k in April. I ran my first ever 10k on NYE (55m on pretty rough terrain). Aerobic fitness is probably my priority at the moment - I'm climbing mont blanc in June so that's a pretty important goal for me and offering some motivation.

I swear everyone on this forum is naturally talented. Just run a casual 55min 10k first time. I could train for it for 3 months and not sure i'd get there.   :wowthatwasnutswtf:

those goals look great - " Try to stay healthy, not get fat, feel fit and happy. ". Good luck.

539
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: January 05, 2019, 08:23:12 pm »
Quote from: maxent on January 05, 2019, 10:32:13 am
Time for a deload? Thinking of starting a new cycle. More work with less weight but more reps. Starting tmr. Haven't figurd everythi9ng out but will experiment a little. Keep things fresh.

starting to have a change of heart (overnight lol). looks like my cold has dissipated. now im considering the benefit of doing the next 50 days squatting > 150kg. im incorrigible. but it may well make the gains 'stick' if i can maintain 150+kg chronically. but what i cant do is keep increasing the weight every time, like i'd been doing up til now. so maybe a compromise.. squat a clean 150kg daily, if it gets super easy along the way, i can revisit but for now i still with 150kg for the top single and then do work in the high rep range.
Here is a rough idea of what i wanna achieve by day 100  at 85kg bw or less:
BS 8 x 145-150kg (no belt)
BS 3 x 160kg (no belt)
BS 10 x 140kg (no belt)
BS 15 x 125-135kg (no belt)

Higher rep goals mostly but i want to start progressing my triple up as well. I don't want to be doing heavy singles greater than 150-160kg tho, i think that's a bad idea. Any in terms of fitness, well ive kind of lost my mojo with the daily running. Not sure why but i might need to regroup and find a way to get that 15km / 90 min long run goal out of the way so i can focus on speed (which is what i really want to but haven't earnt the right to train for yet).


540
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: January 05, 2019, 10:32:13 am »
Time for a deload? Thinking of starting a new cycle. More work with less weight but more reps. Starting tmr. Haven't figurd everythi9ng out but will experiment a little. Keep things fresh.

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