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Messages - TKXII

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496
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: NEW type of depth jump experimentation time
« on: December 15, 2010, 01:54:00 pm »
Quote from: Kellyb on December 15, 2010, 12:42:59 pm

Quote
My takes on it though. The depth jumps used very high angles of flexion for the hips and knees. I think this may be one reason why the subjects' leg press improved much more than expected. It has routinely been shown that dynamic strength training using 50% 1RM improves 1RM, so perhaps one reason why the strength gains were seen is that even less of a % of 1 RM is required to improve max strength as long as the range of motion is fairly decent. They did not seem to mention this.

"Yes, you can improve strength using shock training, but it's not a very efficient means of doing so IMO. The stress put on your skeletal system and cartilage is too great, particularly once you get past the beginner level."



What I was wondering here was how the participants increased their leg press strength significantly through the depth jumps. I was hypothesizing that the hip and knee flexion for the HDJ and KDJ turned the exercise more into a power exercise. I wonder how fast they were jumping compared to the ADJ. Also, I was thinking that if the above were true strength gains would be similar to those seen by dynamic strength effort methods.


Quote
All of this can be applied to an RVJ, or this speed depth jump. You can try to be stiffer at the knees or hips to overload any joint. This study though did not illuminate what the biomechanical contributions to work output are by the joints of this type of depth jump.

Look a little closer:

Biomechanical analysis of the modified plyometric depth jumps was also performed to analyze joint contribution through total work done at each joint (Holcomb et al., 1996a). Total work at the hip, knee, and ankle joints was 80%, 5%, and 15%, respectively, during the hip depth jump. Analysis of the knee depth jump revealed contributions of 37% at the hip joint, 49% at the knee joint, and 14% at the ankle joint. The joint contributions during the ankle depth jump were reported to be 24%, 20%, and 56% at the hip, knee, and ankle joints, respectively. Therefore, each depth jump primarily stressed the particular joint for which it was named.

The main thing you should take from that study IMO is the specialized depth jumps over a 12 week period of time didn't increase vert (or anything else really) anymore than the normal depth jumps or improe anything as much as the strength training group. RJ went thru all this stuff for ages before he finally saw the light. You're more likely to tear yourself up and get injured by making your special exercises overly specific then you are to get gains above and beyond what you normally would.  I suggest when you do depth jumps you do them in a manner that feels natural and allows you to get a good jump in. If you want to influence or change muscular contributions use exercises that engage the correct muscle groups, boost their recruitment/function/strength, then reintegrate that back into the depth jump (or any other jump). In other words, isolate then integrate.


When I said "this type of depth jump," I was referring to the one that this thread is about. The speed depth jump, which is slightly different form the ones in this study, and how we do not know the biomechanical contributions of the muscles in that movement since the study was not about it.

Notice I have been trying to say that this speed depth jump I am speaking of is pretty much the same as regular depth jump, in that you can start just as slowly with a 4 step runup, or a faster three step runup, similar to starting off a 12 inch box before progressing to higher boxes. I also said we should stop arguing the specificity of this because it is not much more specific than a regular depth jump I have realized. They are both specific but in differing ways. ( I changed my opinion from the first post). I think it can have similar advantages, and it is fun. Actually, it's exhilarating so I encourage you to try it... and adarq, I want you to at least try it and post results.

497
Nutrition & Supplementation / Re: Adding muscle while losing fat
« on: December 14, 2010, 08:43:26 pm »
I find all the low/carb high carb cycling stuff a little brosciency.

http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/2010/11/overfeeding-reduces-insulin-resistance.html

Then look up RRARF. Little different approach

498
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: NEW type of depth jump experimentation time
« on: December 14, 2010, 06:03:27 pm »
"I think the muscles you use to amortizate depend on where the body center of mass is. If it's forward then the quads will be loaded because you'd otherwise collapse at the knees. If the legs are reached forward a lot and the butt is therefore behind a lot, then you'd collapse at the hip instead so the posterior chain is activated."

-Totally agree, this is what I was thinking would be the result of this horizontal depth jump, but the amortization is too fast for the hips to really contract. I think you mentioned those hip dominant people have alonger amortization phase? Maybe that is why I did not feel anything in the hips.

Kellyb: i read the entire study, really cool.
My takes on it though. The depth jumps used very high angles of flexion for the hips and knees. I think this may be one reason why the subjects' leg press improved much more than expected. It has routinely been shown that dynamic strength training using 50% 1RM improves 1RM, so perhaps one reason why the strength gains were seen is that even less of a % of 1 RM is required to improve max strength as long as the range of motion is fairly decent. They did not seem to mention this.

All of this can be applied to an RVJ, or this speed depth jump. You can try to be stiffer at the knees or hips to overload any joint. This study though did not illuminate what the biomechanical contributions to work output are by the joints of this type of depth jump. So I'd like people to go try it and report results.


About backwards depth jumping, I love those, and I think we could safely run backwards then absorb the shock as well to overload the pchain. That's really what I was looking to do with this exercise, as I feel as if I cannot reach out before a vertical jump very well. But now it seems to be overloading my quads. It may be due to my natural limb structure favoring quadricep.

499
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Eccentric-less Training
« on: December 14, 2010, 05:52:46 pm »
From my experience, I find quicker recovery from eccentric less exercises, and I also don't think they need to be assistance based as thibideau says. Pushing/pulling a heavy object for a maximal effort for 10 seconds is not assistance, so I'm wondering in what context we're talking about for this type of training.

"These days, I'm using a weighted backpack from bounding/sprints and my recovery has shot through the roof. My desire workout has also increased. I do not feel adrenally drained, in fact I feel better, so I'm sticking with it for the next 4 weeks when I won't have a gym. I think Thibideau also pointed to studies showing reduced insulin sensitivity to the muscles

There is some utility to that during peaking phases when you want to avoid microtrauma and increase IIX to IIA fiber ratio while still maintaining strength capacities.  I wrote about it in my "Fast twitch machine" articles. However, it's already built into a proper periodization cycle - a lower volume of overall strength work (or lower reps) will inherently reduce microtrauma even without specific focus on reducing eccentric exposure.

What the use of those methods will do is tax energy stores, which will significantly increase glycogen storage capacity, which will give you the illusion of significantly greater leg mass even if the things occuring at a cellular level aren't really occuriing."

In response to Kellyb: first off, thanks for taking the time to help us young kids out. Secondly, say we push a heavy object for 10 seconds, how is that going to increase IIX - IIA? Just as with regular weight training, the load/intensity determines that conversion. If we are pushing at max effort with heavy resistance, we are recruiting IIX i would presume. I will read your fast twitch machine article though, i Probbaly have already however.

About the microtrauma, what if we kept volume similar? Would there really be as much microtrauma? And about the glycogen, I believe we are speaking of taking this to an endurance standpoint. If we take the eccentric-less ideas to apply to speed training, I do not see why the glycogen capacities of the muscles would increase as much.

Also, I think eccentric-less training is more natural and designed for our bodies, so perhaps better. Just a thought with no evidence, I wonder what everyone thinks.

500
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: NEW type of depth jump experimentation time
« on: December 13, 2010, 10:47:39 pm »
^again about the risks, let's start slow, this would mean a 3 step RVJ, with a little extra umph for velocity. Move up to 5 (3 lefts, or 3 rights), vary the speed. I'm not talking about sprinting into it all the time, but rather just a little extra velocity that you can safely handle Same exact principles apply for a depth jump, you start slow off of 12 inch boxes, and move up, this is no different. SPrinting into it though is something worth trying for some extreme training, kind of like parkour ppl jumping off buildings. But very risky indeed.

UPDATE: just came back from the gym and decided to post findings

ADARQ: youare a GENIUS! Totally hit quads and achilles tendon, I should have known this b/c I have felt this before.. to target pchain you'd have to land BACKWARDS. THe only way to target pchain a bit more is with a 30 degree/45 degree plant (basically  regular sideways RVJ) My problem was keeping my heels low as I've been sprinting a lot. With the heels kept low you do target the pchain a bit more, but still heavily quads/achilles/soleus.

Jumping with the heels with this is almost impossible, you would need a trampoline, in which case, this exercise changes a lot, potentiation effects are a lot different

So there are 4 variations that anyone with an open mind who is willing to do something new can try.
1. 3/5 step RVJ with extra speed - jump. The most basic variation
   a. as you get faster, the heels start to rise. So you can either keep the heels higher up, or
   b. try to keep them low after gaining much momentum
2. 3/5 step RVJ with extra speed - jumping with slightly sideways plant as in a regular vertical jump (if you do have a dominant plant leg)
3. 5+ steps  - much more difficult, heels will be much higher and is definitely riskier
4a. 3/5 step runup with supraphysiological velocity (more than in your regular comfortable RVJ) - land. No jump, just land, center of gravity should be low... but everyone is different so I do not know.
5. Wear a weighted vest - kill your patella I'm going to try this though....

So, since the quadriceps/lowerleg experiences some pretty drastic breaking forces or whatever you would like to term it with this exercise, it's a good addition to your regime. Just be careful


501
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: NEW type of depth jump experimentation time
« on: December 13, 2010, 07:41:36 pm »
Ok ok, so some things to clarify: what is the role of the pchain in the RVJ for most jumpers then? (of course some people use more quads or more pchain.. i need an indepth biomechanics lesson on this) This is something I've been trying to understand, but i've been sprinting lately so i have not looked into it. It just seems as if many jumpers REACH OUT before the plant so much before the amortization phase, lengthening the hamstrings glutes, and quads of course, that it seems important to enhance the absorptive capacities of these muscles. Weak absorptive capacities might limit the runup velocity, and also the potential of the quads.
And Raptor, the 20m sprint to rope jump is exactly what I'm talking about. Just hope you don't trip over the rope haha.

Luke Lowrey (which everybody hates, bought his program though when I first got into this), recommended single leg hyperextensions for the 2 legged vert, he stressed that the hstrings absorb a lot of force.

"the overload of a DJ simply strengthens the athlete to enable them to transition faster from eccentric to concentric, as well as produce more force during the initial plant (drop) and transition.. those adaptations transfer well to RVJ, they don't need to be completely specific. The thing with DJ's, is that you can load them up with forces exceeding that which you can create voluntarily, ie by raising box height, ie 30" through 42" box heights. 30" for "reactive strength peak", 42" for maximal strength peak."

Ok clarifying again, I will say that the shock runups (good name) I suggested aren't actually specific anymore, let's not even talk about that,  Regular DJs and this exercise both provide a supraphysiological environment that strengthens certain components of an RVJ. What I'm saying is that, the shock runups will improve the transition MORE, than regular DJs, simply due to the muscles involved, and the nature of an RVJ, with the runup and all. But now you're saying that the quads would be involved a lot more. Say instead of jumping vertically from a 7 stride runup, we jumped horizontally, I definitely see how my pchain would be more involved. So that does make some sense... It's been a while since I've done this so I'll have to try it again. What I noticed was a very short ground contact time, which is the goal of this exercise.



What I envision, is the athlete jumping up like a pogo stick, after it is thrown like a dart into the ground in front, more like a 1 legged VJ, jumping form the HEELS if possible (which hurts for sure) Therefore pcain would be used for braking forces? WHen I did this exercise with a minitrampoline, this was the case, I did not use much quad, or I do not think, also I jumped with my heels more, thr trampoline makes it easier of course. My biomechanical analysis of this is very incomplete. The braking forces of the quads may be the correct explanation, just counterintuitive. However, I am trying this out right now, and I just saw something else to clarify. Jumping with the HEELS, really targets the pchain, but jumping regularly hits the quads more.....????? so confused.

About the voluntary thing: I don't see how that matters, a machine could throw you forward like a batting cage throws a baseball, that's involuntary, but it produces the same result, horizontal velocity, that needs to be converted to vertical. So yeha, this exercise could be done if a machine threw your body forward, or if gravity were sideways, lol.


About Adarq's last point, I forgot to mention this actually. Instead of actually jumping, you can just "land" from the sprint, or 7 stride run up. In essence that's a depth drop, on a different plane. THis entire exercise IS  depth jump/drop, but on a different plane, at least that's how I think of it.

Definitely agree about the injuries, it's hard, and it's intense. But no more intense than Russians jumping off buildings for depth drops, or parkour landings, those produce results, but injuries are more likely. I'm going to the gym right now to try this. I will also do this more in a week like I said. Haven't been jumping in a while due to knee issues and focus on sprinting

502
Pics, Videos, & Links / Re: Weighted Vests
« on: December 13, 2010, 12:22:25 am »
Thanks for posting this thread, I'm looking for one. In the meantime though, I've been using a backpack, filling it with heavy textbooks. Got it to 23 pounds, could probably get it to 30 with a few more books. Tied very tightly it still bounces up and down a bit, but for sprinting, bounding, and single jumps it works great.

503
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / NEW type of depth jump experimentation time
« on: December 12, 2010, 09:46:13 pm »
I've been pretty eccentric with my training ideas, and am always questioning the specificity of exercises for sport. I'm a little less eccentric now but I just wanted to throw this idea out there. If other people have talked about it just delete this thread.

A depth jump is supposed to overload the muscles involved in power sports. Most depth jumps however seem to overload the eccentric capacities of the quadriceps group more than is specific to vertical jumps, one or two footed. Although this is beneficial in many regards, I'm just raising the question of specificity. In a running vertical jump, the athlete usually takes three to four steps before jumping. This increases the amount of force the glutes and hamstrings absorb before transferring it to the quads, in simple terms.

What happens in a depth jump however? The trajectory of the center of gravity looks like a bouncing ball dropped off a cliff. But in a running vertical jump, the trajectory of the center of mass is more like a pinball that meets a spring and goes flying, in other words, it stays quite level for the first three or four steps, then right before the jump, unloads like a spring. Completely different.

So here is the exercise that I propose, it's pretty damn simple, I'm sure people have done this already, but while it's on my mind I'm posting it. It aims to improve the ability of the posterior chain to convert horizontal velocity/power to vertical velocity/power

1. Run faster than you ever would for a running vertical jump
2. Jump as high as possible.

Start with three fast steps, then progress to five, seven, nine, and a full sprint if that's even possible. You may be surprised how high you can jump. Someone who is very good at converting horizontal velocity to vertical is TDUB. In this video he has jumped faster than anything I have ever seen, probably as fast as Darlington or faster. He also does not get as deep as he usually does, maybe this is related to his tremendous ability to absorb force in the pchain?
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg4oPtERYqY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg4oPtERYqY</a>

Problems with this method: targets Pchain heavily, and is therefore not completely specific to a vertical jump...lol, of course only a running vertical jump is completely specific. After one workout, the potentiation from your CNS may cause you to favor the pchain more in regular jumps, so that is something to think about for long term use. I get potentiation effects very easily so I don't know about you. I plan to do this in a week when I will be off weights.

Rest up,
Avishek

504
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: theAktor's sofa workout - badass
« on: December 12, 2010, 09:23:49 pm »
LOL, thanks for the support man. I plan to do this again for 4 weeks after this semester when i'm too cheap to get a gym membership.

505
Pics, Videos, & Links / The Jumping Masai
« on: December 05, 2010, 09:50:19 am »
I haven't been here in awhile, but I found no posts on the Masai tribe... well some of them could be high jumpers.

Note that they do not use much arm swing. In fact, any arm swing they do use goes in the opposite direction of what we think of as an arm swing; they swing thair arms slightly back and up, shrugging the shoulders a bit. Some get pretty high!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJElkJNZnY4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJElkJNZnY4</a>

Guy at 00:27 looks pretty nimble - more so than any one else in the other vids on youtube. I'm sure there are many more specimens like him


Compare with Ced Norman, masai descendant (just kidding), i'm sure many have seen this video
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcCSKHgLykQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcCSKHgLykQ</a>

With proper arm swing that guy at 00:27 maybe jump just as high as Ced?
Also, notice some of them bend their knees inward a bit to jump higher

506
Pics, Videos, & Links / Re: *ATTENTION* HOW NOT TO DO MR TUCK JUMPS *ATTENTION*
« on: December 05, 2010, 09:44:04 am »
Wow haven't been here in a while. Interesting stuff going on.
For the first two, the big white guy, his terrible form is more a product of his low vertical. He does not have the reactive strength to perform a tuck jump with good form and enough hangtime.

For the ankle hops - he is not overloading his ankles as much as he could if he did not flex knee.

For leg press - he's not training for strength; he is lifting very slowly, stopping at bottom of motion wastes the kinetic energy that can be turned into an explosive lift. That type of lifting is good for endurance and general strength/hypertrophy maybe.

Lol I loved this thread by the way, worst depth jump I've ever seen. I felt lazier watching it

507
Article & Video Discussion / Re: Another odd exercise, want your opinions
« on: May 20, 2010, 07:56:09 pm »
yeah, I like the how the ball forces me to be more aware of the body. In fact that's why the exercise is so mentally demanding as well as physically. The core involvement in this is huge, ur right about the vest though I wish I had a vest or a weighted belt to use for this

Zginphill, what are you confused about? I'd like to hear

508
Article & Video Discussion / Another odd exercise, want your opinions
« on: May 20, 2010, 03:59:49 pm »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwNWpttORgY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwNWpttORgY</a>



Here is a link to my blog, where I explained the exercise a bit further. http://therawhigh.blogspot.com/2010/05/eccentric-pistol-squats.html

I named it eccentric because you train to absorb more force in the thighs, hopefully some people like this one . . . . feedback please

509
Peer Reviewed Studies Discussion / Exercising in Cold - adaptations
« on: May 15, 2010, 03:26:03 pm »
Cool study right http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1324116?dopt=AbstractPlus


Increased insulin sensitivity? That's a plus!

I found that on this site
http://www.exrx.net/Notes/ExerciseAbstracts.html, lot of great info there


I could try to figure it out but I'm a bit lazy but how do I add a hyperlink within a word, like if I wanted to link the word "here", I'm having trouble on this forum and it's different than I'm used to on others?

510
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Hamstrings in VJ
« on: May 15, 2010, 03:23:13 pm »
whoops my, b. Anyway the the study found that hamstring power output increased, man I wish I had the full text though, read the abstract people!

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