Adarq.org

Quote from: T0ddday on December 21, 2015, 09:13:03 pm

Quote from: Eric on December 21, 2015, 06:46:56 pm

  I think more people would benefit from going out, getting shit faced and doing stupid things when we are focused on some sort of fitness goal that we take seriously. 

Lol.  This must be a joke?  Is your reasoning that doing stupid things will get you to end up in jail where you will have more time to train?

The fact is alcohol is metabolically terrible.  Goal oriented athletes should use it sparingly.  There is a reason why michael jordan didnt drink alcohol until he was 30. 

At the very least athletes should avoid all beer and other mixed drinks and consume only limited amounts of wine and spirits.  If you do insist on drinking till the point of intoxication the absolute worst time to do it is when focused on a fitness goal.  Take a 5 day vacation to mexico.  Drink up on two of the first 3 days.  Cut back by 4 and dont drink at all the last day.

Where did the jail thing come from?  Are you drunk?  I've gone out drinking plenty of times and I've never been arrested, just go out, have fun, hit on a big chick by accident, deal with the hangover and move on.  This isn't anyones job from what I can see, it's a hobby and yes he wants to take it serious but preaching the dangers of alcohol when someone drinks once in a long while is just stupid to me.  MJ didn't drink til he was 30, thats great, anybody in this forum in the NBA? NFL? MLB? or do we do this shit to have an extra activity in our lives to better ourselves and get away from bs?  That is all, I am going to go back to watching Creed.

The jail thing was a joke!  It was in reference to your quote that "getting shitfaced and doing stupid things" is beneficial to trying to achieve a fitness goal! 

Im glad you are able to go out and get shitfaced and do stupid things without getting arrested.  Being white in america has its privileges.  But we cant all count on this, so maybe you shouldnt give advice to the forum that doesnt apply to everyone...  Some of us get arrested fo going out and not doing stupid things around others that are...

Makes me think of Minecraft for whatever reason, lol

I wonder what's up with the human fascination with landscapes?

I heard someone claim that men like unconquered (virgin) land for the same reason they like single women.  The original is a bit more sexist but I modified it...

Maybe we see land that hasn't been claimed by any man and imagine coming up on that beauty for ourselves.   For me a landscape or beach at night or any of these things just remind me of the size of things and how small I am in the world which is comforting...

Not sure we can compare LBSS to Jordan here (no offense mate  ) but isn't there something mentally refreshing about going out and blowing off some steam. Not saying to do it every day but every once in a while surely. 

Why can't we compare LBSS to Jordan?  Doesn't mean LBSS play basketball like Michael Jordan - the similarity is MJ really wanted to be as good as he possibly good.  LBSS has wanted to dunk for close to a decade and hasn't given up on the goal, I'd say he wants it pretty bad or he is crazy.  Given that he wants it so much and has worked this hard....  why consume a poison which will only sabotage his ability to reach his goal?

As far as blowing off some steam...  I do believe that we need to relax.  We need to mentally refresh and sometimes even (gasp) take a day or a week or more off...  It's a great idea to devote a day to just meditation or massage...  We can't keep it 100 every day - we need recharge mentally and physically...  But, the thing is alcohol sabotages all these things...   

That said I don't want to come off as preachy...  Shoot, I PRed this year in trips to Vegas (embarrassed to admit I went there 3 times when once a year is more than enough).   I'm a sucker for pool parties and a there were not a lot of completely sober moments on those trips...  It can be a lot of fun and it can be great for your friendships and social life (not necessarily great for your relationship but thats another story)...  However, I think we should take responsibility for our decisions and not lie to ourselves (I think this helps us make better ones overall).   I realize that choosing to consume alcohol can negatively impact my training especially if I am at a high level.   Sometimes this tradeoff is tolerable or worth it for me because I value other things than just training...  However, I'm not gonna make that claim that Eric did - that going out and getting drunk and doing stupid things when we have a focused fitness goal is somehow helpful in that endeavor...  It's not.  Neither is spending three days in the hospital getting no sleep while your wife has complications when giving birth to your child (training would be better) and almost everyone not named Kobe Bryant (jk) would probably choose to stay at the hospital...

Point is if you decide to drink.. fine.  Realize it has a large impact on your athletic goals and is metabolic poison.  Sometimes it's worth it. But don't claim that you "should" do this because letting loose actually is good for training...  Telling ourselves those kind of lies is how we get into trouble.  Own it. 

Many people told me it is not necessary for me to lose weight.. they look at me and think i am fit.  However. talked to Adarq, Kadour, and tawinese trainer.
All confirmed for a 5'11" dude.... 15xlbs to 16xlbs is the most efficient... for jumping.. (not for basketball)

Damn... So I have a long ways to go?  Must lose 50 something pounds?   I hope I'm the exception....

I agree with everything you are saying and already knew it, except for the following:

- I have always had a direct carryover to my jumps from increased squat strength relative to bodyweight, even when I was a 1 foot jumper. ... the single most important thing I have ever done is taken my squat from 1x bw to 2x bw.

It's great that you replied in detail because I think that this claim actually shows how different jumps are.  You can correct me if I am wrong but I feel like your line of thinking goes:

1) I was a one footed jumped which is clearly a far more reactive technique than DLRVJ.
2) Therefore I am really reactive.
3) My squat made my legs stronger and I jumped higher.
4) Therefore, increasing squat == increasing jump across the board for reactive or strength oriented jumpers.

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I think that you should carefully consider each of these points and how they could be false:

1) We often forget that while the one footed jump has a far greater speed component than the SVJ - there is still a hell of a lot of diversity when it comes to one footed jumps.  Their was a paper that showed how drastically different Carl Lewis and Mike Powells take off is - one begins with a lowering of COM 2 strides away to prepare for the jump while the other essentially springs out of the penultimate and accelerates into a final step and jump.  If you look a high jump analysis there are a great many ways to jump.   Their are strength 1-footed jumpers, reactive 1-footed jumpers, hip-tendon dominant 1 footed jumpers, achilles jumpers, fascia speed jumpers, etc.   

2) You are capable of carrying horizontal speed into a jump and making use of it but that doesn't mean you are not a strength 1-footed jumper.  I can barely grab the rim from a SVJ.  Give me a single drop step and I can dunk the ball easily.  However it's still a strength jump. 

3) Maybe.  At what level of an athlete were you before squatting?  Maybe you are quite reactive but were really weak - ie had zero core strength, no low back strength and couldn't express your reactivity until you got some general strength.  Maybe it's not your squat going from bw to 2bw but just the general strength that allowed you to maintain stiffness in the jump - general strength that could have been obtained through sprinting or other training that wouldn't have increased squat.

4) For the above 3 points you can see why this is not necessarily true.  You could also just consider the high-jump over head world record holder, Stefan Holm.  He is 5'10 and jumped 7'10.  It's hard to convert that into a vertical jump but getting your COM 7'10 from 5'10 even with perfect flop technique suggests that he easily has a 50'' SLVJ.    Despite this 50+ SLRVJ his standing vertical jump is only 23''.   He mostly uses an empty barbell in training.  He hasn't squatted near 2x bw.  Do you honestly think that if he got his squat to 2xbw his jump would get better?  He is already the world record holder in height above head and 2inches from the world record set by a 6'6'' guy...

Consider the diversity of both people and jumping...  Squats were specific to your body to increase your jumping but that just can't be generalized easily... 

I just feel like is more economical training wise for me to increase my squat:bw ratio rather than focus on plyos EVER. How long do your plyo gains stick around??? This is very important. When i lift for strength, if i take a few weeks off i lose some strength right away. It takes a few weeks to get it back after that. But most of the gains REALLY stick around.

The gains are sticking around because you haven't lost strength.  You have lost  movement efficiency in the squat.   That's why it might take you 3 months to go from 250 to 275 and another three to go from 275 to 300, but after taking time off and going back down to 270 you can get back to 300 in a matter of weeks.  One thing you will notice is that the "increased strength" from going back to 300 from 270 won't have any carryover.   That's because for most people squats have very little direct carryover to jumping (far less than bounding, depth jumps, sprints, etc).   The increase in the jump from squats is the side effect of squats - larger lower body muscles, stronger core muscular, etc.   But that's the problem with your claim that maximal strength has a higher ceiling - as we get stronger we make more and more squat gains because of squat movement efficiency... These won't carry over.

If nobody feels like reading all that, i basically argue that for people who are decently naturally reactive theres no need to focus on DJ's unless you are nearing the end of your training career defined as not seeing returns on increasing your squat:bw ratio that are worth the effort. Only then is DJ centered training economical. The fact that increasing max strength increases RoFD as well, also plays a big role in this.

What's interesting is that you present yourself as a naturally reactive athlete (and I'm not here to tell you that you are not) but keep stating the carryover of maximal squat strength to your jumping ability.   Truly reactive athletes don't see returns on increasing their squat:bw ratio from jump.  They essentially begin at what you define as the end of their career.  Depending on their build and level of starting strength some will see gains from squat:bw ratios if they are very weak - but these are fleeting.   My max squat was a shaky above parallel 185lbs when I was in highschool - I was 5'11 170 and could dunk off 1 foot and rim out my attempts off two feet  and could run 11.2 in the 100m.  My jumping ability (svj,dlrvj,slrvj  was about 28'', 33', 35'') .   After getting in the weight room and getting to the point where I could nail 5x5x225lbs  ATG @ 5'11 183 I was able to run 10.6 and my jumping ability was ~ 30'',38'',36'.   Interestingly I tried deadlifting for the first time then and could do 405 on my first try...  Anyway, years later I built my squat to 500lbs @ 205lbs and achieved jumps of ~ 34'', 38, 34''.    My gains from squat:bw ratio essentially were maxed out by the time I could handle 225lbs... 

Sorry for the long digression but I think this reminds me of one very important coaching tip: Sometimes we have to train to our strength.  You might have good reactive and maximal strength expression in your jump.  Which is the point your making - essentially that you should focus on your weakness because it will give you the best bang for your buck...   This might be true for you.  But for those on the extremes it's important to recognize that while it seems counterintuitive focusing on your weak link is often the worst thing you can do.   We see this all the time in sprints.  You have an aspiring 400m runner with runner who has amazing top speed and mediocre speed endurance ( say 100/200/400  10.4/20.8/46.5 ) - the runner dies at the end of the race.   A well meaning coach immediately looks at the athlete and decides that the athlete has "enough" speed and needs to focus on speed endurance.   After getting far more speed endurance the athlete comes back and now has the ability to run 46.0 (but has splits of 10.6/21.3/46.0).   It's terrible coaching and it happens all the time.   Initially the athletes 400 time was "bad" relative to his 200m (a 20.8 200m predicts a 45.3) not it's "good" because a a 21.3 predict a 46.8.   I've gone through this cycle with coaches and it's really frustrating.   The coach should have done a little endurance work throughout the year but kept emphasis on speed - the athlete would have been better served getting their 100m and 200m down to 10.2 and 20.5 then neglecting their natural ability to gain speed endurance...

The same is true for jumps.  The really reactive guy - he needs to focus on reactive work.  Sure maximal strength training should probably take place but it should not be emphasized.  The really reactive guy is the one who needs the depth jumps!  His bang for the buck for reactive training is far greater than the other guy, in other words he is the best athlete he can be when he is squeezing out 95% of his reactive potential and 70% of his maximal strength potential.  Same thing with the other way around... get the non-reactive person as strong as possible.  Reactive work is his background training...  Sometimes we have to train our strength and just be conscious of our weakness. 

Hey Andrew, I have a question for you.  I know your big into depth jumping.  Going through the literature it doesn't seem to be clear and I wanted to get your input on this question.  Clearly the literature suggests that:

1) A program involving depth jumping AND practice of the CMJ (running or standing) yields better results than one that only includes practice of CMJ.

This seems to be well supported by the evidence.  However...

Do you think that the same is true in so far as:

1) A program that involves practice of CMJ and rebound jumps (eg repeated vertical jumps to a target, repeated horizontal jumps (double leg bounding, etc)
2) The same program + depth jumping.   Given that the rest intervals for depth jumps were insignificant (15sec, vs 30,60) does it not seem that depth jumps would provide a lot less advantage to a program that already involves repeated jumps (of course repeated jump spacing is far smaller (1-2 seconds) and you can't depth jump with such intervals unless you have a strange stair setup... 

Interested in your thoughts.  Personally, I believe depth jumps provide limited help in a program that already involves a multitude of multiple jumps.

i need to do a cut.

That's the extra inch I was talking about .  Add in hyperhydration and dehydration and we are talking 1.5 inches!