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Messages - steven-miller

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391
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« on: November 02, 2010, 12:31:08 pm »
Strong post. This has been my experience, as well. I can DL 370# at a bw of 168 but my BEST running jumps are 30.5". That's because I spent a long time wanting to get stronger to get my vert better but not actually jumping while I was doing it. In retrospect, this was beyond stupid.

I don't think jumping is the end of it all in terms of making max strength usable. Sure, you need to jump if that is what you are training for, but people neglect resisted power work such as cleans and snatches and getting better at these, too. The advantage that I see for the olympic lifts and their variants over exercises such as jump squats is that they are better scalable and also involve a more complete pattern of hip flexion/extension. That does not mean that jump squats are a bad exercise, Kelly Bagget posted a nice variation here a while ago where you make jump squats and try to touch a band overhead with each rep. I like this idea since it makes progressing in that exercise a lot more quantifiable.

So in my opinion making use of max strength boils down to making the correct exercise selection and make objective, quantifiable progress in those exercises. If that cannot be done, choose a different exercise. Actually jumping is a part of that, too, but I don't think it is the answer to consistent progress for people that are beyond the novice stage.

392
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« on: November 01, 2010, 07:22:25 pm »
Well yes they go hand in hand. Anyway, I'm going to do this and see what happens. Call it an experiment.

Yes, they DO go hand in hand, but that does not mean that hypertrophy needs to be your primary goal when what you actually want is strength and power. You think, because of your training history of slow progress (due to bad decision making, "experiments" and injuries), that you cannot possibly get stronger without doing a "hypertrophy phase" first when getting stronger should be your primary goal and it would actually happen really, really fast if you would just do what has worked for others over and over again and finally, for the first time, EAT like an athlete. And surprise, your muscles would grow without this being your primary concern.

Instead you are going to label this "experiment" a hypertrophy phase, just because you don't want to call it strength training, since that would make progress, or lack there-off, measurable and obvious. And you are paying for this comfort with your training time and with higher risk of injury (as Lance already pointed out). And another thing I can tell you and I bet that this was the reason for this bogus in the first place: This hypertrophy phase won't make gains easier later on. It will be just as hard - it's just that you will wait for the results a lot longer.

393
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« on: November 01, 2010, 12:25:20 pm »
I agree with Lance here, because I think that this mind set is broken and might not lead to where you actually want to go. Although hypertrophy and strength have a lot to do with each other, the primary goal can only be one of those two and it should not be hypertrophy if you are an athlete that needs basic strength. Your primary goal needs to be to get as strong as possible with whatever hypertrophy comes along with that. And you need to measure your progress accordingly, namely how much stronger you got in a specific period of time by work weights going up instead of circumference of your thighs or massiveness of your glute muscles.
I think what Lance means with "bodybuilding type training" is that you think about hypertrophy increases more than strength increases rather than the topic of rep ranges. And I agree with that, although I think that there will be an optimum rep range that will work best for a specific goal in a specific situation. I am personally not a fan of the egalitarian thinking that everything works best. Because that is not how the universe operates, but that again is another topic altogether. It's just that in this field, where most of the exercise science is just either crap or does not have clear implications for the real world (think studies done an the cellular level), there is hardly enough objective, scientific data for everyone to see and draw conclusions from about what actually works best and what is not. So trainers and trainees will come to their own conclusion and it boils down to who you believe has the most experience and the best knowledge and data to support their findings. But just because this is the current stage of practice does not mean that everything works best. Again, it is not. [/rant]

But yes, you need to think about getting strong and forget about that nonsense that you need a hypertrophy phase of training where that is your primary goal.

394
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« on: October 31, 2010, 04:18:43 pm »
What's up Raptor, you got into bodybuilding mode now or what's the deal? Why the focus on hypertrophy suddenly instead of strength?

395
He will need the powercleans...

396
You do what you want to do. But regarding my progress being something extraordinary - It certainly is not. Several months ago I started a thread on startingstrength.com asking for those who finished SS the way it is supposed to be done (utilizing 3 x 5 for squats, eating enough etc.) to post their final numbers. If you look at the answers in that thread and exclude those who got injured for some reasons (or have been injured already when they started the program using it as "rehab") you are getting a pretty consistent picture of guys finishing the linear progression typically between 300 lbs and > 400 lbs for sets of 5.
Rippetoe himself says that 325 lbs for 3 x 5 after 6 months is typical for a young male that started as a complete novice, meaning that lay-offs, small injuries, resets, canceled work-outs due to other obligations are already calculated in. So under optimal conditions more is possible. I finished at 402 lbs x 5 x 3 - a little higher than Rippetoe's norm - but if you take into account the correct reference population (male, 5'10, early 20s, competitive athlete in a non-weightlifting sport) this is probably rather usual. In that thread I talked about there were several guys who got a lot stronger than me purely on 3 x 5 squats 3 times per week. Here is the link: http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=17900

Again, you do what you like to do and 5 x 5 will probably work fine if you do that once a week and squat at least another time during the week with a different volume and intensity (lower volume for sure, but I am not sure what intensity would work best in your scenario). But that approach is not as efficient and I doubt that you will get more hypertrophy this way. That is because hypertrophy follows strength and you will get stronger faster with 3 x 5 until you are not a novice anymore. Period.

397
So you guys are suggesting sets of 5 instead of sets of 8?

I'll consider that. I'll work for a while with the what I have planned for now, and observing what is going on, I might adjust it. I have like 4-5 months of strength training planned if no injuries occur, so that's plenty of time to change stuff it I need to.

Do you really think a 3x5 is enough stimuli for good hypertrophy to occur (if the food intake is right)? I'm more into hypertrophy than strength as my target right now, I want to switch to a more strength-focused rep range later (4-6).

See, that type of periodization is what I don't understand for someone with your levels of strength. It is unnecessary complicated for a beginner- intermediate, especially in face of the fact that hypertrophy and strength go hand in hand. I never in my whole training life did more than 5 reps as a work set and I have thigh circumferences somewhat over 24". Regardless of hypertrophy or strength as a primary goal - mid to long term you are better off with 5s at this point in time. You can use higher volume for hypertrophy once you manage appreciable weights IMO. That is if you are into bodybuilding now.

398
Well I'm definitely going to have a very high % of work towards the hypertrophy side, but as a short stim/recovery, one week in 4 is going to be a strength & stim & recovery week, only to return to hypertrophy again.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that approach, changes the stimuli a bit, gives a moment to recover better and off we go with hypertrophy again.

It's not wrong, it's just not time efficient and it also neglects the fact that plenty of hypertrophy is going to occur in lower rep ranges than 8s, too and that one can recover faster with less volume and still have enough hypertrophy to get stronger...

If you like your setup as it is, go for it. It might work. I just don't like that it is unnecessary complicated for the simple goal of getting stronger (and getting stronger is your goal, not hypertrophy, right?).

399
I think what you write might be time efficient - for a late intermediate to advanced lifter. You are far from that and you should not over complicate things. There is really no need for this kind of complex programming where you have a hypertrophy stage, a strength stage and a maximum intensity stage. That would typically be useful for an advanced guy, who might want to gradually decrease volume but increase intensity, but certainly not for you. You should just worry about getting your 5 rm up and you will experience lots of hypertrophy and lots of maximal strength gains in a shorter period of time than what you are shooting for now.

That's my take on it.

400
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: ARowe's Journal
« on: October 18, 2010, 01:58:42 am »
Hey man, just read it on adarq's channel.... Congratulation to those fabulous PR's, that rate of progress is really solid!

401
@Raptor: I had the same thing for a while with the low-bar squats, I even logged it way back in my journal. Although I had decent technique my elbows did hurt doing heavy weights. The same happened to some people on Mark Rippetoe's board. Adjusting the grip width has helped in all those cases as far as I know - including myself. I have had problems for weeks with this and taking a slightly wider grip made a small but noticeable difference until the pain subsided completely after a few work-outs. I have never had any elbow problems with squats again after that, even when going max. So you might want to give that a try!

402
Regarding the A2 work-out and those 4 x 10 squats - what would be the purpose of that work-out? 3 x 8 with weekly increases could work well for you though. But that is a lot of volume already for max strength gains. Instead of doing the 4 x 10 squats I would do a high intensity day with more weight than on A1 but lower reps, maybe 3s and increase A2 along with A1. You could utilize the MSEM method on that day two, would be pretty much the same purpose. I would do that as long as it works. B1 could work well as recovery day if you don't go really crazy on the BSS and if you are adapted to the movement. Powercleans would work for now, too, but will later be more difficult to incorporate as recovery. But right now I don't think it will be problematic for you.

Upper body looks good besides that I like overhead press + bench press more than incline bench press + bench press because it (the press) is generally a good movement which involves the whole body more opposed to the incline and is also a little less similar to the bench press. Goals are looking very good to me! With that volume you might be surprised at the end that you did not get that fat after all. So 75 might not even be necessary, but you can evaluate that for yourself once you are there.

Good luck with it!

403
Pics, Videos, & Links / Re: Frank Yang Returns to the Gym
« on: October 10, 2010, 12:44:30 pm »
Man, the guy got small as hell. He is really looking scrawny there and I liked it better when he performed his ugly but heavy squats, cleans, snatches and deadlifts. He used to have a decent bench, too.

404
This is used to destroy the rotator cuffs, it's not supposed to be a strength exercise primarily I guess.

Fixed.

lol?

405
This is used as conditioning, it's not supposed to be a strength exercise primarily I guess.

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