Adarq.org

You guys don't understand. That phase of life is over for ADARQ.

  Bands are far from being "superior" to free weights, if you said bands + free weight is superior to free weight only resistance, you would have a case to argue.  Using a band only set up you have virtually NOTHING at the bottom of the lift.  

Agreed. I don't think anyone is arguing against this.

  The accommodating resistance effect is nice, but the eccentric overload (bands pulling down actively faster than gravity) is where bands provide something free weight or even chains cant.  

Hadn't realized this. I kind of want to try it out now. But of course, you can increase eccentric overload by dropping down faster than is comfortable, or faster than your body can handle in order to lift the weight as powerfully as possible.

 E.g. strength or resistance trained folk will take more time to load the jump during the eccentric than someone on a plyo program or even better on a program with these bands. FOrcing them to jump as fast as possible will load their eccentric phase more..right?

The thing with a jump and comparing it to accommodating resistance is, the body is getting LIGHTER, and youre having to move FASTER the higher in the range of motion you go.  Youre only applying maximal strength at a very small portion in the bottom of the range of motion.  The bands have the opposite effect on the concentric portion, they apply little to no resistance at the bottom portion, then gain tension rapidly as the weight moves towards the top.  During the eccentric portion though, they "trick" the cns into preparing for a load it really wont have to deal with in the stretch position, and you will typically get a more explosive contraction due to that effect.  That is why many have seen the phenomena of a free weight + bands (even though its MORE resistance) move faster on the tendo than that same free weight without the bands.

On the "tendo?" I'm thinking you meant amortization

This is all probably correct, but in the context of a full training program, you hopefully wouldn't screw up your motor patterns too much, and that was my concern. Neural mechanisms can screw you up, or take you to new heights.

Also, you can still apply maximum POWER at the bottom of the ROM.. just try to jump as high as you can..done. DOens't matter what the resistance is. Even if bodyweight. I feel like you'd get a different stimulus in different parts of the ROM. For example

Bottom of Jump: more power due to greater eccentric loading (or whatever the proper term is?) and amortization velocity.
Top of jump - produce more power and more force, not as much velocity - because the bands apply more resistance at the top, ESPECIALLY in conjunction with weights. Concern would be RFD/neural mechanisms, could these bands, without appropriate stimuli from other exercises, teach you to jump with LESS speed?

Thta's really my question, I should have stated it in the first post.

  The reverse band set up has its uses as well, but any time you take away eccentric tension, you better make damn sure youre getting it somewhere else if jumping or anything power related that involves the ssc is your goal.  

Right. But who said we're taking away eccentric tension? What about dropping into the squat faster to increase eccentric velocity as I mentioned above.

  

Bands used as accommodating resistance allow the strength curve to follow closer to the actual strength curve of the lifter... lighter resistance at the bottom of the lift, and gradually increasing to accommodate the strength curve.

DId you mean weaker instead of lighter? THen that makes sense, most people are weaker at the bottom than at the top. What about isokinetic training then do bands mimic isokinetic conditions? It's probbably like asking if Obama is a fascist, there are similarities but stark differences... Just reading this article briefly, isotonic trainig generally results in LESS increase in jump power compared to isokinetic. I.e. regular weight training results in less increase in jum ppower compared to constant velocity training

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1318001/pdf/jathtrain00024-0033.pdf

Bands also reduce the decelerating affect that dead weight has.  If you squat fast you have to slow down or the weight flies off your shoulders.  With bands the increased resistance at the top of the lift allows you to accelerate better even to the end of the lift.

THat's why in the controversial thread "the right and wrong way to squat" I recommended always jumping with the squat to prevent it from decelerating. It's definitely more tiring and on lighter days I'll simply rise on my toes and let the bar rise a little bit above my traps.

@Avishek I'd be interested to see your results of over-speed training with the bands to produce faster contraction speeds.

I don't have this exact band yet, but it would be a lot of fun to try this. I've seen one defranco vid doing this, but I had already thoght of it because it made sense. Again, all gains would be neural. If the force isn't there, what does it matter? I think the future in sprint training/jump trianing lies in RFD. So all neural mechanisms such as this could be highly valuable to elite and already very well stength trained athletes.

WOAH - just thought of something. What if I attached the part that goes on your feet, to the top of a squat rack, and sqatting with like an extra 50 lbs? Or just tried jumping, it would greatly reduce ground contact.... it's only 43 bucks on amazon. I'll get it by the end of the month.


(edit: multi-quote fail)

yes I have but we all know thats not what you are trying to do, your form just sucks so bad it turns into that

True. I guess i invented this exercise all on my own! Woopie!

Quote from: Avishek on December 21, 2011, 11:44:35 am

THe real argument is - should you try to jump with the weight as if you're jumping in a squat. The toe-to-heel terminology is a bit confusing.

I don't have research whoever asked me for that. I'm merely stating and sharing my opinion. As I mentioned, it would be fun to see research on this, all I have is empirical evidence so far. Furthermore, I did not mean to state it all as fact. But hey if someone really would like to provide research to readily refute this, go ahead I'm all eyes and ears. Has not come forth as of yet

Steven - learn so spell ditto correctly. I'm sorry I offended you you take things like a little bitch does.

strong, strong use of the word "empirical."

perhaps learn to spell "do" correctly when correcting others' spelling.

Perhaps, learn to capitalize letters in the beginning of a sentence.

"Empirical research is a way of gaining knowledge by means of direct and indirect observation or experience" - observational evidence may be the most appropriate term.

Despite just recently squatting and starting out with almost a 30''svj, my SVJ has gone up 4'' with about 40+lbs increase in squat. Once I get to 315 with this style I can comment again. THis has to do with specificity of the squat.

Interesting point about the amygdalae. And I very well do understand their purpose and deal with it in every single debate I am in since most people cannot think rationally under stress. But still steven you are not providing a rebuttal, you are playing the "go do your own research you fool" card. If you provide the adequate rebuttal with say a few quotes or so it would take care of the argument itself. I don't have too much interest in rippetoe, nor do I need to learn to squat properly. I'm trainig for vertical jumping and speed, not to squat more weight. I only mildly appreciate his amygdala-infused inspirational quotes people base their training on. Surely the 'proper' way to squat may be to go back on your heels, but not for athletic enhancement.

You don't have to do a calf-raise at the top of the squat in order to squat heel-to-toe. What's most important is that you don't go backwards on your heels. The point is that in a jump, you accelerate constantly (technically speaking you always accelerate due to gravity.. and it's always downwards..) If you do that in the squat, it could help you jump higher than going back on the heels. I'll post a video of myself soon making this distinction next time as soon as I get the chance to with weights. I suppose this is very similar to the argument, should you try to jump squat every rep you squat? Imo.. it would be better. It's not possible to jump squat with too much weight, but aiming to accelerate the bar upwards may be better. And a side effect of that is.. you're on your forefoot not on heels at the top.

Actually, my max squat to just below parallel is higher than 225. 225 is referring to atg, completely paused at the bottom.

I do not state anything as fact at least I do not try to. I'm open to the idea that everything I think is wrong like a true philospher. But still, nobody has commented on descending on the toes, after I posted several videos of this type of squatting and steven insists that it does not exist and therefore my argument is flawed because I didn't take into consideration that this has been discussed before. Post some fucking links jesus christ.

My max squat is only 225 because I just started to train it in order to be normal. I did not want to train it the past 3 years. of my training.

I can post a video of myself squatting soon, but Kingfishes is spot on so check that one out on page 1. Again, a clear difference is in the way the knees track. Just watch how little his knees actually move horizontally compared to frank yang's squat. 

Also again steven, I said you had good form. I have nothing against your form actually, I can't see your feet perfectly though.
Kingfish - I recommend squatting heels bottom, toe at the top, not toe bottom heel top as you might have said I recommended and it's not unsafe at all with a moderate weight. This is just to teach people not to descend on the toes as they would prefer.


"3. The main problem with Avishek's actual argument is that it takes no recognition of thoughts previously spelled out by experienced coaches and experts. One can certainly name several of those figures, many of which will voice different opinions. Avishek however does not take notice of anyone who has thought through a lot of things and has provided conclusive lines of thought regarding optimal back squat technique for performance training. Instead he constructs, due to his limited experience and knowledge, some dichotomy that is really not there (toe-to-heal and heal-to-toe) and tries to underpin it with an incomplete "analysis" of "something". "


-THis is very true, but false at the same time. Taking into recognition all this past research is not a prerequisite for having a good argument, sound methods and logic are. My argument certainly does not take into recognition anything, I have no references, as I mentioned, I am using my common/kinesthetic sense and experience to analyze this and in reality i'm looking for feedback and an intelligent discussion which has not been made yet because nobody has the good will to just lay out some research and post some links. Instead people would rather be closed minded and brainless, except Lance who asked me to post my form. Steve, if you think you have all this wealth of fucking knowledge the correct thing to do is to just post it and it takes care of itself. The fact that you are commenting on my squat numbers and level of expertise shows you are lost as fuck and don't know how to rebut my argument off the top of your head. So basically, this is not biochemistry, or quantum physics, you don't need much of a brain to figure out this shit and I don't need to post references or have read every book on the subject to say something that makes sense.

LANCE: You think someone is going to increase their chances of injury from squatting heel-to-toe rather than toe-to-heel as they would probably do naturally? As the individuals in the videos I posted squat? What's worse for your knees? Answer is pretty obvious. THis argument is so fucking simple I do not understand why people don't get it.


And see? No one has even commented on my argument. Instead you pussy faggots post my old videos which do not represent my current training and ignore the main argument because you have no control over your amygdalas since you are all teenagers.


The one armed deadlifts are for grip strength undoubtable. It's more of a hold than a lift.