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Messages - T0ddday

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316
To be honest the rationale behind your suggestion doesn't really make sense. Ever heard of wave loading on something like a squat going like 70% x 3, 80% x 3, 75% x 3, 85% x 3 etc. or even the method of french contrast which relys completely on going from weighted to unweighted to weighted again. I think you can achieve good progress with applying methods like that imho.

The squat examply was an analogy and maybe a poor one like that.  Do realize that there is literally zero evidence for eave loading or contrast methods or the million other sets and rep schemes in comparison to good old linear progression...  Anyhow jumping max vertical with increased weight on your body is a different beast all together... be my guest if you want to play with loaded jumps followed by unloaded jumps at max effort and back to loaded jumps...  ive seen over 30 athletes now use weighted jumping as its become popular here... ive also seen quite a few back injuries and poor progress from loading schemes like the ones you describe...  weighted jumping works, if you think you can make it work better for you give it a try and hit jumps.in the 50s

317
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: Age vs Vertical
« on: April 10, 2016, 05:15:49 am »
Glad to see your almost done with GPP.  I will say I learned something big from your journal - I tried to do left handed dunks the other day.  WOW.  About 10x easier given my LR plant.  And I can do them from so many more angles.  I can only dunk with one hand in basketball games off of spin moves or approaching the hoop from a semicircle angle from the left baseline and coming away from baselines.  With the left hand I feel like I can come from anywhere... I lose the ball and have trouble palming with left but with practice this is truly a great trick.  Anyway I posted this in a few other journals but answers to these exercises would go along way in constructing your next cycle:

For the one footed bounds start with front foot at take off line and back foot behind it, do not run in with speed but do not do a one footed take off either.  For sprint times take a video with any timing tool and film from 1st movement till chest past marker.  If you have FAT times you can subtract 0.2 and list those as well.  If you don't have any experience with it then try and and test yourself:

Standing Vertical Jump
Double-Leg Running Vertical Jump
Single-Leg Running Vertical Jump
Standing Broad Jump
Three Consecutive Broad Jumps
Five Single Leg Left Leg Bounds
Five Single Leg Right Leg Bounds
Five Alternating Leg Bounds
Forty Yard Dash
60 meter sprint
100 meter sprint
200 meter sprint
Flying 30 meter sprint
Full Back Squat
Parallel Back Squat
Barbell Bench Press
Standing Barbell Push Press
Barbell Deadlift
Strict Overhead Pullups till Failure
Pushups Completed in 30 seconds
Bodyweight Leg Raises till failure

318
duly noted. why, out of curiosity?

Well consider some of the reasons why the weight vest works and the positives and negatives to jumping with added load.  The obvious positive is that more load means more motor units will need to be turned on to jump.  The negative is the speed of the jump will be reduced under added load.  To make it real simple think of something like a squat or deadlift/clean.  If you go to the gym to do squats you might start with light load and move the bar very quickly.  After moving 135 and 225 very quickly you will have the movement pattern and speed down and be able to attempt a bigger weight like 315.  Similarly, you might do a bigger weight like 315 before you do your speed squats with 225 because the quick neural adaption to the bigger weight will make 225 "feel light".  Some oly lifters do this with deadlift - they deadlift a big weight like 500 or 600 and then go do cleans or clean pulls with a lighter weight because the new weight feels light.  However, they don't squat heavy, then squat light, then squat heavy again.  Reason being that re-adapting to the light weight and to the heavy weight again after fatigue and use of the heavy weight to poteniate the light weight will make them struggle with the heavier weight...

I hope that makes sense.  The bottom line is we see athletes hit weighted PRs in the jumps by working their way up to a heavy weight trying to maintain the speed with lighter loads.  We also see athletes hit PRs with light weight or no load by first doing heavy weighted jumps.  But we don't see good performance when an athlete goes from BW to weighted to unweighted.  In general the best affect of the weight vest comes from wearing it outside of training and during warmup.  It's debatable whether weight should be left on all or some or no workouts.  Nothing wrong with taking it off during the workout to maximize ME jumps - but putting it back on will make things unnecessarily difficult...

319
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: April 10, 2016, 05:05:38 am »
Some observations from today's medball workout: It does NOT potentiate my jumps as Todday's ones does. However a few years ago i did use banded plate swings to potentiate myself to jump higher. I never attempted to reproduce that, because i never needed to do icing on the cake type potentiating before .. but may revisit them if i am properly peaking my vertical at some point.

 If the utility of medball throws or swings for training for athleticism is determined by potentiating ability of the exercise, then Raptor might be right that swings are the way to go for me. But no reason i can't do both. Anyway, for now im happy to include throws. I don't have a pair of KBs at home, the gym has them but not sure i will continue my membership there. Still, while I have access, i may as well do them.

Finally, with my new barbell im able to do olympic lifts better .. so im gna try to get my hang powerclean over 100kg. That wont hurt my athleticism either. And i've also adopted the suggested goal of a 100kg push press.. that should be do-able within the 12-month timeframe also. However, when your only benching 100kg i dont think i have enough upper body strength to lock out 100kg overhead .. but no reason i can't get my bench up to somewhere semi-respectable like 115kg or so by then. Especially with the nicer bar which seems to be more balanced unlike the old bent one which forced me to lift asymmetrically.

Any other weightroom goals you guys can suggest? I'm summarising them below:

RDL - 10x200kg
BHT - 10x230kg
Backsquat - 180kg (>2xbw)
BP - 115-125kg
HPC - 115-120kg
PP - 100kg
OHP - 90kg??

And i think that's the lot. Can't think of any others at the moment that i'd care to set a goal on. RDLs and BHTs i should be able to achieve in a few weeks time. Backsquat will take time and ofcourse upper body lifts will take the longest.

Outside the weight room I have the following goals:
Medball throw (see above for 6kg and 10kg medball goals respectively relative to football field markings)
Weighted dunk @ 115kg
Decent 60m sprint time (concrete numbers??)
Windmill dunks, arm in rim / elbow hang dunks etc (dreaming)
suggest any more that would be useful to me

As far as potentiation goes - do not judge an exercise by the ability of it to potentiate your ability.  Judge the athlete on his ability to obtain potenitation.  That said band work will always supply potentiation easiest simply because it's difficultly increases at the end range of motion.  Consider barbell weighted squats vs unweighted heavy band squats.   The weighted squat must be slowed as you reach lockout (unless your doing a jump squat) so motor units have to turn on at reversal and then turn off near the top.   If bands are used instead of weights then the load increases toward the top and motor unit have to stay on or even turn on near the top of the range of motion just like how a jump requires you to turn on motor units as you accelerate off the floor.  That doesn't mean barbell squats are inferior to band squats or do not have their place in your training - just means it's not as easy to get a potentiation effect. 

I put this in acoles journal but if you are looking for other goals outside of weightroom fill out this list of abilities and you can get started on movement efficiency in a big way:

For the one footed bounds start with front foot at take off line and back foot behind it, do not run in with speed but do not do a one footed take off either.  For sprint times take a video with any timing tool and film from 1st movement till chest past marker.  If you have FAT times you can subtract 0.2 and list those as well.  If you don't have any experience with it then try and and test yourself:

Standing Vertical Jump
Double-Leg Running Vertical Jump
Single-Leg Running Vertical Jump
Standing Broad Jump
Three Consecutive Broad Jumps
Five Single Leg Left Leg Bounds
Five Single Leg Right Leg Bounds
Five Alternating Leg Bounds
Forty Yard Dash
60 meter sprint
100 meter sprint
200 meter sprint
Flying 30 meter sprint
Full Back Squat
Parallel Back Squat
Barbell Bench Press
Standing Barbell Push Press
Barbell Deadlift
Strict Overhead Pullups till Failure
Pushups Completed in 30 seconds
Bodyweight Leg Raises till failure

320
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: April 10, 2016, 05:00:45 am »
I just bought a 5 kg med ball and a 24 kg kettlebell with less than 100 euros, years ago. I just paid 100 euros for two items I'll basically have forever, so a great investment.

Ehhh I hope it is forever.  We had a 12lb medicine ball crack in half on us at practice today.  Never been tossed on hard surfaces only turf, grass and sand and the ball split down the middle on a far toss...

321
That's the program you wrote for LBSS in this thread (http://www.adarq.org/strength-power-reactivity-speed-discussion/stole-acole14's-program-and-adapted-it-for-myself-thoughts/15/) that I used, I might have misread your instructions on it though in terms of reps. What would you suggest now?

Well in that case its excellent!  Lol.  Thats embarrassing.  Im surprised I would recommend woodchoppers, not becayae they are bad just it isnt a name I am familiar with.  Because of your track background I would recommend more bounding and sprinting.  Ill write soon.


Ha! It's funny when you don't remember writing stuff...happens all the time in academia as you'd know. I just put woodchoppers in because it's an easy rotational core exercise to do, which is something my myo recommended (he's also a sprinter/coach). Also do med ball twists sometimes. But that stuff is very flexible. Cool, will wait to hear what you think, I'm not in a rush to start it. Thanks mate!

Tbh I do forget the ability levels of everyone here, but I think you are a sprinter?  What would be best is if you can fill out this form and I can get back to you better given your ability:

For the one footed bounds start with front foot at take off line and back foot behind it, do not run in with speed but do not do a one footed take off either.  For sprint times take a video with any timing tool and film from 1st movement till chest past marker.  If you have FAT times you can subtract 0.2 and list those as well.  If you don't have any experience with it then try and and test yourself:

Standing Vertical Jump
Double-Leg Running Vertical Jump
Single-Leg Running Vertical Jump
Standing Broad Jump
Three Consecutive Broad Jumps
Five Single Leg Left Leg Bounds
Five Single Leg Right Leg Bounds
Five Alternating Leg Bounds
Forty Yard Dash
60 meter sprint
100 meter sprint
200 meter sprint
Flying 30 meter sprint
Full Back Squat
Parallel Back Squat
Barbell Bench Press
Standing Barbell Push Press
Barbell Deadlift
Strict Overhead Pullups till Failure
Pushups Completed in 30 seconds
Bodyweight Leg Raises till failure

322
That's the program you wrote for LBSS in this thread (http://www.adarq.org/strength-power-reactivity-speed-discussion/stole-acole14's-program-and-adapted-it-for-myself-thoughts/15/) that I used, I might have misread your instructions on it though in terms of reps. What would you suggest now?

Well in that case its excellent!  Lol.  Thats embarrassing.  Im surprised I would recommend woodchoppers, not becayae they are bad just it isnt a name I am familiar with.  Because of your track background I would recommend more bounding and sprinting.  Ill write soon.

323
oh yeah that was a good routine. didn't help me jump higher, though. might it be worth getting away from the track for a while, because it's been the site of some discouragement for you? like focus on weights and SVJ for a bit, go full kingfish?

t0ddday put RVJ last for me, as well, and after trying it that way a few times i just ignored the instruction and put it after warm up and skater hops or MB OH throws. it helps to have one or two exercises to get firing but then RVJ should be done un-fatigued.

As much as going full kingfish is tempting I'll try to do it as written initially. Despite the crap season, I really like running and training at the track and it would keep me in touch as least.

rvj is last half for convenience, half because athletes jump higher last.  it all depends on your work capacity and muscle mass.

OK I'll give it a try. When's your site going up btw? Very keen to check it out.

We have a site in testing. You can check out our instagram: 
 

Don't worry about when you do the jumps.  LBSS does them earlier because he jumps higher that way.  That's the only rule.  Do the jumps when you jump highest.   The reason I like them last and a lot of athletes jump best when very very warm and sweaty (see raptor and my posts) and a easy weight circuit and hip activation takes care of this AND I trained a lot of athletes to jump where the gym and bball court were separated - so we would do gym THEN court.  It was a pain to do gym, court, gym.   I prefer gym then court (with jumps) because I think squatting after bball conditioning is worse.   If you don't have this need for convenience you need to get a lot of volume of very high jumps however you can...

So what program are you going to be copying exactly?   And how bad are the achilles?

This one:



I'll update the weights when I get a feel for where I'm at over the next few weeks. I decided to lighten the second gym session a bit weights-wise because it'll be on the weekend and I may be able to do more jumps then. But I'll see how it goes. There's a spot where I can do SVJ/DSVJ reliably though I think. I also might be able to get shed access at the track to get a shotput and tape measure. That'd be sweet.

Schedule would be [MON: rest // TUE: Track#1 // WED: Gym#1 // THURS: Track#2 // FRI: Yoga // SAT/SUN: Gym#2]

One thing that could change things a little is that some of my aths mates want to play in a bball comp at my gym, which would be pretty fun. The standard is not anything near what I used to play at, just hacks messing around mostly. If they get in it'd be on Mondays, so in that case I'd maybe attenuate the track session the next day (just shot tosses/tempo, less jumps). Would be good to get some pre-game jumps/dunk attempts in. I couldn't care less how I play though lol, just in it for the hops!

The achilles bursitis is feeling OK atm. I'm really wondering if my shoes were giving me issues over the last 6 months. I got some Nike Zoom waffle racers (cross country flats) to train in around August/September to replace my trusty Nike Free 3.0's that had holes in them. I seemed to get this issue roughly around then. The other day I played some pickup ball in some Nike Free 5.0's that I have, and the next day was expecting to wake up in pain, but weirdly it was fine. Hm, something to note. But overall, better.

P.S. Site looks awesome btw! Pretty cool to be training NBA players.

is that a Joel smith program?? he never gets volume right.

324
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: April 06, 2016, 03:52:04 am »
When he gets some glutes? Wasn't he saying that he's hip thrusting 200+ for reps? Doesn't sound like lack of glute development to me.

The problem with using an exercise to gauge power.  He can't jump more than 30'' and he is incredibly slow.   Watch his dunk videos and you see a guy who has undeveloped glutes that don't fire.  Hip thrusts are a good glute activator but they use a small range of motion and the load doesn't necessarily equate to power very well.  I can get a good workout hip thrusting 225lbs or 505lbs - I have never "maxed" my hip thrust and don't need to.  One of the biggest evaluation mistakes you can make (and usually it's self evaluation where we make it) is when we assume that an athlete can do "X" so therefore that part of the body is clearly not the problem.   It usually comes from an athlete doing an isolation exercise of limited range of motion and assuming that means that muscle is not an issue.  Classic example is a slow sprinter with weak hamstrings who can do something silly like a "Natural GHR" assuming that "I don't have weak hamstrings so that can't be the issue" but not realizing that using your hamstrings as a knee flexor with your knees on the floor doesn't have much to do with hamstring power or development in hip extension during a sprint.  Watch an athlete move dynamically an locate where he has weakness rather than referring to a gym lift as evidence of anything.   


I agree with that. But you can't say he "has no glutes". You can say he isn't using the glutes that he already has at a pretty good level in terms of strength (yes, isolated movement strength, gym work strength, whatever) well in dynamic movements. That I can agree with. On the other hand, he doesn't seem too fast in ANY movement so I'm not sure it's the glutes' fault - it's either his desire to be fast (he is just "sleepy", "lazy" when he plays or whatever), or his CNS is slow.

We can test that if he agrees to film some "glute unrelated movements" dynamically (can't come up with an idea now) or that keyboard type test (where you press the spacebar as fast as you can for 10 seconds and see what kind of numbers you come with to test "quickness" or CNS speed). I know, silly tests, but they might provide some information (relevant or not).

Back to the glutes idea, I would do dynamic glute movements if I were maxent - KB swings (a ton of them, focusing on the "hip snap"), med ball tosses (focusing on the hip snap), double leg bounds, depth jumps for length etc. I know a lot of these things have a horizontal component in them in terms of hip action - if anybody has any idea about a vertical hip dynamic movement... I'm all ears. Maybe SVJs to rim with little knee travel and a lot of hip bend/hinge (like what Toddday was trying to do in his depth jumps videos).

Plus sprints. If I were as slow as maxent, I would say "fuck this, I will do sprints like crazy" and try different distances and give 110% effort on them. Not only are they great plyometric exercises but also train the hip hyperextension, the posterior chain dynamically, the calves dynamically, stiffen the Achilles etc, all the good stuff.

Obviously, all these besides playing actual aggressive ball (especially on defense, since you don't have the ball and can move freely, you can be quicker/faster defensively and you'll benefit from that type of multi-directional "plyo work").

These are what I feel are the most sensible things for maxent at this moment.

I agree with 99% of what you said.  I just don't find hip thrusts to actually be the best test of glute strength even in isolation.  I believe this just from empirical evidence and the only argument I can make probably isn't that satisfying - it's just that I have seen tons of athletes who are really weak somehow able to do a lot of hip thrusts with moderate weight.  The same isn't true for other compound exercises - eg if you can wide-grip bench a lot of weight your delts and chest must be strong - doesn't mean you necessarily are recruiting them dynamically -but they are developed.  Maybe it's because we can make the hip thrust really hard or really easy by where we place our feet, by how high we put out shoulders on the bench, by whether or not we truly squeeze at the top of the lift.   Point I'm making is it's really easy to cheat our way to big hip thrust numbers...

However, like you said it doesn't matter if he has some strength reserve in his glutes if he doesn't recruit his hips dynamically it won't help and you gave great suggestions for exercises that will force him too...

That said, to answer his question about how he knows if he has weak glutes or hamstring or quads I would tell you why this is my hunch. 

1) The eye test.  He hasn't posted a lot of video or pics but from what I see is an athlete with no hip pop who doesn't look like he has much glute development (simply put - small butt, no natural anterior tilt, doesn't look like a sprinter or glute dominant athlete).  Of course looks are not everything.

2) The strong and weak points.  While not spectacular his standing vertical is one of his more impressive feats.  In fact his standing vertical dunk is almost as high as his running vertical.  His vertical jumping ability is "better" than his speed.  In this I mean most people who can jump as high as him are probably faster and in fact most people who can jump within a few inches of him are probably faster.  Hamstring dominant athletes will usually be at one end of the spectrum (really fast but surprisingly bad at jumping) and glute dominant people in the middle with more speed than jumping ability but not extreme while quad-dominant athletes will be decent at jumping besides being terrible athletes dynamically.

3) His long history of being a sedentary fat male. Men who are active and playing sports their whole life figure out how to use glutes as a kid and stick with it.   Men who spend a decade sitting at a desk and then try to play sports usually have inactive weight glutes and hips.

4) His ability to "feel" exercises.  He hates med ball tosses because they only hurt his back which IMO is evidence that he doesn't use his glutes at all.  Of course your right that he might have strong glutes and just not know how to use them.  But I'm less convinced this is the problem - as Charlie Francis said - looks right flys right.  Sure there are exceptions but usually if you have strong glutes throughout the range of motion and train a dynamic skill you will learn how to use them...  Not always though...

My suggestions are similar to yours - bounding, broad jumps, etc (especially tailored to bball at the end), sprints, etc.  If his broad jump is terrible it's more evidence of a glutes issue.  Basically the video I posted is a incomplete summary of how he should be training.   Things like your speed at defensive shuffle is going to be quite glute dominant... 


325
Avoid going vest on, vest off, vest on.

1)  Either start training with zero added load or moderate added load and increase the weight during the session.
2) Start training with adequate load for hypergravity (what you wear around) or even increased load and warm up and then remove weight during the session until you have no added load. 

Either is ok for different reasons but going on, off, on is pretty dangerous... 

326
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: April 05, 2016, 04:45:42 pm »
When he gets some glutes? Wasn't he saying that he's hip thrusting 200+ for reps? Doesn't sound like lack of glute development to me.

The problem with using an exercise to gauge power.  He can't jump more than 30'' and he is incredibly slow.   Watch his dunk videos and you see a guy who has undeveloped glutes that don't fire.  Hip thrusts are a good glute activator but they use a small range of motion and the load doesn't necessarily equate to power very well.  I can get a good workout hip thrusting 225lbs or 505lbs - I have never "maxed" my hip thrust and don't need to.  One of the biggest evaluation mistakes you can make (and usually it's self evaluation where we make it) is when we assume that an athlete can do "X" so therefore that part of the body is clearly not the problem.   It usually comes from an athlete doing an isolation exercise of limited range of motion and assuming that means that muscle is not an issue.  Classic example is a slow sprinter with weak hamstrings who can do something silly like a "Natural GHR" assuming that "I don't have weak hamstrings so that can't be the issue" but not realizing that using your hamstrings as a knee flexor with your knees on the floor doesn't have much to do with hamstring power or development in hip extension during a sprint.  Watch an athlete move dynamically an locate where he has weakness rather than referring to a gym lift as evidence of anything.   

327
oh yeah that was a good routine. didn't help me jump higher, though. might it be worth getting away from the track for a while, because it's been the site of some discouragement for you? like focus on weights and SVJ for a bit, go full kingfish?

t0ddday put RVJ last for me, as well, and after trying it that way a few times i just ignored the instruction and put it after warm up and skater hops or MB OH throws. it helps to have one or two exercises to get firing but then RVJ should be done un-fatigued.

As much as going full kingfish is tempting I'll try to do it as written initially. Despite the crap season, I really like running and training at the track and it would keep me in touch as least.

rvj is last half for convenience, half because athletes jump higher last.  it all depends on your work capacity and muscle mass.

OK I'll give it a try. When's your site going up btw? Very keen to check it out.

We have a site in testing. You can check out our instagram: 
 

Don't worry about when you do the jumps.  LBSS does them earlier because he jumps higher that way.  That's the only rule.  Do the jumps when you jump highest.   The reason I like them last and a lot of athletes jump best when very very warm and sweaty (see raptor and my posts) and a easy weight circuit and hip activation takes care of this AND I trained a lot of athletes to jump where the gym and bball court were separated - so we would do gym THEN court.  It was a pain to do gym, court, gym.   I prefer gym then court (with jumps) because I think squatting after bball conditioning is worse.   If you don't have this need for convenience you need to get a lot of volume of very high jumps however you can...

So what program are you going to be copying exactly?   And how bad are the achilles? 

328
Back in high school I would jump the highest after doing "warm up and gymnastics" stuff for 50 minutes. I would be extraordinarily tired yet jump like crazy (but I was light, at 67 kg).

Now I probably jump the highest after 1 or 2 aggressive games of 3 on 3 (I rarely if ever play 5 on 5, I have no place/nobody to play with). Whenever I play 5 on 5 I feel so reactive, so much blood in my legs - I bet if I would play 5 on 5 consistently I wouldn't even need too much plyo work, except for actual jumps.

But I think the heavier you are, the more the jumps need to come "first" - or else by the time you get to jumping you'll be tired, your legs will be filled with blood and you'll be "muscle-bound", not reactive.

At least this is my experience with this so far.

Well, I am heavier than you and I need just as much damn warmup...  I actually jump best after about 3 games of 5v5 or 1 full league game when I am covered in sweat.   I did do an experiment the other day and weighed before and after playing about 3-5 games and went from 218 to 207...  so maybe it's not the warmup but the massive loss in water?  I will give the sauna a try and see if I can get the weight loss without the fatigue and jump even higher...

329
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: April 05, 2016, 12:36:40 pm »
Yes, that role is not available. I need to contribute more than my height and length .. which isn't much because my lack of weight more than takes away the advantage if there was one present. +20kg >> +6" of reach.  I might have a couple of inches of reach more on my opponent but he may have 10-30kg on me .. and im not even super athletic or quick to take advantage of that weight mismatch. I know todday will disagree but when a 6'6" and 115kg guy posts up on you, doesnt matter that you can jump 35" if he's going to use his refined post skills against you.

BTW - I just talked to a friend who played pro-ball in Aus.  He told me that in NBL they simply do not call fouls.  LOL.  Wow.  So, if I was training you I would put you through a ton of training like you see in the clip but essentially train you like a football player since that sounds more appropriate to your country.  When you visit America I can try and take you to see some of the NBA guys training but I will be afraid you will go soft...

330
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: chasing athleticism
« on: April 05, 2016, 12:34:40 pm »

Try to take the word "only" less literal than you currently are taking it. Of course they use their hips, it's not 100% arms and 0% hips, just like in my case it isn't 0% arms and 100% hips. How do I know that? Watching video and feeling the complete extension/hyperextension. Some people end their hip extension movement and then they still continue moving their arms, and then release the med ball at the moment their arms stop moving. So it's a sequence where the hips aren't doing anything and if anything, they just added some "momentum" to the arms or whatever (try not to take this literal again, you know very well what I mean). The difference in timing might be (very) small, but it's there, and it makes a difference.

In my case, and a few other cases of a friend I was training with, the timing is perfect and it looks like an Olympic lift, a continuous movement where the medball is "launched" by the hips through the hands, but most of the time what I see is this lack of timing and the overuse of the arms to throw the ball.

Interesting.  I ask this because while the hips should fire it shouldn't be a hip throw OR an arm throw and some people don't get this.  Using your hips really isn't the challenge.  You can just move your pelvis back to forward ("hump the air") and boom you are using your hips.  And the ball won't go very high at all.  Just like anyone can do hip thrusts and use their hips but while it's a good strength exercise it doesn't really help to teach hip mechanics.  The challenge is use your hips while throwing the ball as high as possible, you must rotate your pelvis up with your glutes.   This really difficult for most people and when does correctly looks like a hip pop added on to an arm throw.  The challenge of using your hips forward and backward really is only important when the legs are not together (single leg jumping and sprinting). 

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