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Messages - steven-miller

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301
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Starting Strength - Incorporating Half Squats Link..
« on: June 09, 2011, 12:33:59 pm »
I am not saying that he is right and that it never happens. I say people in these forums expect others with different backgrounds and different experiences to accept their views without questioning them despite the fact that most people are full of shit. Is Rip stubborn about these matters? Of course he is! Is there a certain truth to his side of the argument? Absolutely - IMO. Has he asked for data everytime this topic came up? Yes he did, you can go and check for yourselves. It is not that he sits in his ivory tower immune to every contradictory information. But so far there have not been many people come to him and say "Hey Rip, I trained dozens of people to jump higher from a standstill, here is the data." In fact, no one has. Btw., *I* would like to see such data as well and I say that as someone who has made pretty decent gains in his SVJ and has documented that shit very thouroughly. But I am not readily making conclusions based on myself and a handfull of other people on a special internet forum dedicated largely to that exact goal.

@Raptor: I would love to see you get your squat to 2x+ and jump those 35", document it and give that data to Rip. But you have to do it first, you know...

@adarqui: I agree with a large percentage of what you just wrote. Not accepting that someone excels in some discipline because all that matters to you is what you excel in is just plain stupid. However, the reason Rip is talking about SVJ exclusively is not because he cares particularly much about that number, but because he realizes that it is a completely different thing from a RVJ as is a half squat and a full squat. Comparing both with each other is not getting us anywhere. Btw., I do care about my drop-step vertical also :-).

Peace

302
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Starting Strength - Incorporating Half Squats Link..
« on: June 09, 2011, 05:36:52 am »
Lakers, you are not reading appropriately - SVJ is not the same as RVJ.

I also think that people are not trying very hard to understand his position and where he is coming from. People just get into these discussions without an open mind and then get upset, like you are, that he is not accepting the idea that some athletes make solid increases in their SVJ without some form of prove. And he is rightfully so asking for it since those gains (let's say 30%, which is a number that has been used in previous discussions), despite the perception on forums such as this, are pretty rare. You could even look at the logs in THIS forum and on TVS and count the guys that increased their standing jumps more than 30%. There are people who did that, but if you think they are more than a small percentage, your perception of it is clouded.
You also have to understand that athletes on a board like this are a somewhat "special" population in itself. For Rip the SVJ is merely a diagnostic tool. People here treat it as their training goal. Those are two different worlds clashing together.

Those things should be discussed, but IMO this thread got quickly out of hand because opinionated people from both sides did not try very hard to understand the other side and could not get their heads wrapped around what was the actual difference in opinion. It's a pity that this is the case though.

303
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Lack of VJ progression
« on: May 31, 2011, 09:37:56 am »
@longvol: Your numbers are pretty impressive and I am sure we can all agree that you have the strength and power to jump very high. I am wondering though if you have measured your actual vertical jump height yet. I advise you to do that and then we will get a better picture of things. The highest touch from a jump can obviously mean very different things for people with differing standing reach. When you are already well in the mid 30s or higher, then there would be nothing outrageously strange about your performance profile.
Other then that I am not a huge believer in the theory that jumping from a standstill is a terribly complicated movement that takes tons of practice either. BUT you certainly have to practice the act of jumping to a decent degree and most people who rarely jump will make gains in jumping performance from that alone. And from personal experience I can say that not jumping for a while will have a negative effect even for people who are pretty skilled at it.

I recently "tested" the VJ of a hobby weightlifter I train with. He is about your height, 170 lbs and full cleans 215 lbs with lots of room to grow though. Those are not impressive numbers by any means, but you would expect him to do a decent jump (at least 28") with that power relative to his low bodyweight. To cut the story short I could not even get a measurement out of him since he was unable to reach the target by at least 8 inches judging from how it looked. That target was 9'8" high. I don't say the guy is a gifted athlete by any means, but he has some strength and power. His VJ is so uncoordinated though that he cannot seem to express it at all.

304
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Need help programming my next macrocycle
« on: May 27, 2011, 08:32:36 pm »
Quote from: psychomark32 on May 27, 2011, 04:57:33 pm
I disagree with steven-miller.  I actually think the squats are TOO intense.  Your sqauatting 3 days a week close to 90% of your 1 rep max.  This is during your REACTIVE PHASE, when you're not even trying to get stronger, but more explosive. 

Compare this to Westside Barbell powerlifters.  Those guys ONLY focus on strength and they are only squatting/deadlifting heavy 1 day a week. 

For your body to be stimulated optimally, you have to send it the right signals.  You need to throw a shit ton of speed and explosive exercises for your body to adapt to the stimulation and for your nervous system to be firing properly.  If you do too much strength exercises, you will not only be telling your nervous system to move SLOWLY, you also will never feel fresh because you're working close to your max and never recovering optimally.   

Volume is what hurts other training sessions, intensity won't in this circumstance. You also cannot compare advanced powerlifters to intermediate squatters trying to improve their vertical jump. Heavy singles mean very different things to novices, early-intermediates (like Dreyth), later intermediates and advanced guys and regenerating from it is very depending on the state you happen to be in terms of weight-room strength. Doing heavy singles after his plyos and then resting for at least 48 hours is not going to hurt him at all.
The next thing is that he has responded extremely well in the past to improvements of his relative squat strength in terms of VJ performance. Taking this into account it seems very logical to make sure that he keeps as much of his strength as possible despite losing bodyweight. Doing three singles per week, as you have suggested, is probably not gonna accomplish that.

I am also not a fan of "throwing a shit ton of speed and explosive exercises" at anything because it seems to me that this is something you would do if you don't know which exercises get you results and which don't. I do not say that I know all this, but I would rather try a small selection of exercises, fail with them and regard them as useless than doing 10 different exercises that give me a mediocre effect and I would not know where it is coming from. Knowing what does not work is valuable information, too.

305
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Need help programming my next macrocycle
« on: May 26, 2011, 08:12:47 pm »
Intro phase looks good. Regarding the Heavy plyo phase, it does not look bad I guess, but you have to make sure to progress in your plyometric ability as well. You can't just drop from the same box for 8 weeks and assume to improve. Other than that I much prefer pogo jumps over tuck jumps. In terms of squat maintenance you have to look how it works for you, but I would guess that it is not optimal because it lacks intensity. 3 x 3 at 87% is not much, but the singles are really too light. I would much rather try something like MSEM on one day and go up to at least 95% and do some heavy singles the other days to maintain coordination and form as well as stimulate the nervous system.
That would be my thoughts, overall however it looks like it might work. At least address the plyo thing though. Good luck with it!

306
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: ADARQ's journal
« on: May 26, 2011, 08:22:39 am »
Really nice jumps, you should measure at some point in time!

307
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Rankings
« on: May 23, 2011, 04:53:02 am »
Thx@all for the comments and to Nightfly for putting this up very quickly. Hope someone challenges this soon!

308
Article & Video Discussion / Re: got a cool email today !! iso extension stim is in the SSTM (Verkhoshansky book)
« on: May 22, 2011, 06:17:50 pm »
Cool news, in which context are you mentioned and what is the book about?

309
Article & Video Discussion / Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« on: May 22, 2011, 12:27:45 pm »
Quote from: JackW on May 22, 2011, 10:12:55 am
1) I was talking in terms of shoulder flexibility/mobility. I have seen a lot of athletes over the years that don't have the necessary ROM to correctly perform overhead lifts with a bar.

Generally speaking I do not believe stronger and more stable shoulders are necessary regardless of sport. You definitely have to take the sport into consideration. In this sport though, stronger shoulders are clearly going to be advantageous.

Which kind of athlete, other than an injured one, is not able to press or hold stuff overhead? And even if those exist, this does not mean that doing presses or snatches are "hard on their shoulders". To the contrary, doing those exercises will train and strengthen this ROM, which is useful to every human being, not just sports people. Your argumentation seems to be that since some athletes do not use this ROM in their sport, they should not train it. I disagree quite strongly about that. In fact I believe that everyone who is capable of doing so would do himself/herself a gigantic favor in training his/her whole body to a certain degree at least.

Quote from: JackW on May 22, 2011, 10:12:55 am
2) After playing around with the exercise myself,talking to him, and watching the videos I am now of the very clear in my belief that in the context of his entire program that this exercise will provide as good a stimulus as some of the alternative exercises mentioned. If I didn't think it would then I would obviously not be doing my job as a coach because I would be advocating inferior methods.

I would like to add here that when i saw the video, my first impression was similar to yours, that there were better, more effective and safer alternatives. After discussing it with him and also doing it myself (and also looking at his total program again yesterday, which already includes rows) I have no issue with this exercise.

I think in this case you have provided us with insufficient information because you are arguing that the exercise has to be evaluated in the context of the rest of his program - which I agree with. But then you should at least roughly present the programming you use for this athlete when you ask about opinions on this exercise. Because I still cannot think of a way in which this exercise will work as well as powersnatches and rows for example.

Quote from: JackW on May 22, 2011, 10:12:55 am
3) How do I know it is safe. 20 years of training, 15 years of coaching, experience mostly. I have tried enough different exercises over the years to get a good feel pretty quickly about the value and safety of an exercise, I know that might seem like a cop out but I am sure anybody here who has trained for an extended period and tried many different things will have enough body awareness to know if something feels ok or feels wrong. This took no time to learn and actually feels quite good to do.

I am fine enough with that. Hope your intuition is correct.

310
Article & Video Discussion / Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« on: May 22, 2011, 09:43:24 am »
Quote from: JackW on May 22, 2011, 07:46:51 am
Some good discussion here and to those who would prescribe different exercises for triple extension, upper body power - well so would I. However, it is an exercise he clearly likes doing,  and so instead of flat out saying no, I actually did something that I am sure most of the critics in this thread would never do and that is I went out and tried it this weekend. Here is what I found

1) It is infinitely easier on the shoulder joints than regular snatches which given he doesn't need to go overhead is a useful thing to have.
2) It does provide good simultaneous stimulus for the triple extension and the upper back/deltoid area, which in his sport is something he uses (which isn't downhill mountain biking, it is bike technic, which involves a lot of jumping from rocks to logs and other random objects on your bike in an obstacle course type situation against the clock. I should clear that up. The bikes are actually more like a BMX bike).
3) It is a safe movement (aside from the jumping right in front of the step business which I have recommended he not do going forward as it does strike me as trip hazard).

Some questions / comments to you, Jack.

1) In how far are snatches "hard on the shoulder joints"? I don't find that to be the case at all, unless you have shoulder condition / flexibility issues, or you are lifting some pretty impressive poundages.
Also, isn't having stronger and more stable shoulders due to pressing, snatching and chin-upping something good for everyone and especially for an athlete regardless of sport?
2) Do you agree that it provides inferior stimulus to more conventional exercises, as has been brought forward in this thread several times now?
3) Maybe its safe, maybe not. How did you determine that?


Quote from: JackW on May 22, 2011, 07:46:51 am

I am truly surprised that some of you do not seem to understand that in training enjoying the exercises is a very good, motivational thing, especially given that it suits his goals, and is safe to perform. Part of being a good coach is working WITH the athlete, not just telling them what to do all the time regardless of their input. If it is a little unconventional, well, frankly, I don't care. I will keep on having an open mind to new things and leave the rigid thinkers to themselves.


I can see the connection between training motivation and training success very well. But I also see a clear connection between a good training program utilizing the best suited exercises and training success.

Did you actually teach him the powersnatch, the row and the overhead press? If so, did he dislike the exercises that much that he came up with this movement? Or did he even give them a try to see what they do to his performance? You know, other then fun in training, getting serious results can be a pretty strong motivator for many people as well...

I hope you don't disregard my points as "rigid thinking". I am a pretty open minded person, but I still see a difference between a good new idea and a bad new idea.

Regards,
s-m

311
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Rankings
« on: May 21, 2011, 06:55:33 pm »
Quote from: Clarence on May 21, 2011, 06:30:32 pm
Beastly squatting there man!....Exrx predicts that as 217kg.

Thank you :). Not a fan of predicting this stuff with a formula like that though. However, it at least makes sets with different reps somewhat comparable, but I would not give too much about those predictions. If someone gets in here and does 215 kg for a single, that's still more impressive IMO than the set I did today - by far.

312
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: ADARQ's journal
« on: May 21, 2011, 06:50:12 pm »
Your jumping is looking superbly recently! Nice house in the background, too :)

313
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Rankings
« on: May 21, 2011, 06:20:50 pm »
I request listing in the absolute squat strength list :-). Big plates (you can see 5 on one side) are 15 kg each, the medium one is 10 kg, the small one is 1.25 kg, bar is standard 20 kg. Makes this 192.5 kg for 5 reps. List me wherever you feel this puts me (I am fine with being listed under 192.5 kg as best squat, since this is actually the best I did on video). Hope video is okay.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugO98hjWPb4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugO98hjWPb4</a>

314
Article & Video Discussion / Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« on: May 21, 2011, 08:20:32 am »
Quote from: $ick3nin.v3nd3tta on May 21, 2011, 03:00:44 am
The goal off the bike would be to train as specific as possible in the weight room with exercises which employ that whole triple extension (hip/knee/ankle) as witnessed on the bike, which the OP's exercise has. Specificity can only take you so far (riding the bike), then it would be time for greater strength stimulation (weight room), although specificity (riding) will always remain king. Case in point, my power output on my road bike kept increasing the stronger I got with the deadlift & hip thrust. This is seen with track cyclists, very strong guys that can put out huge levels of power. The OP would benefit more from his exercise than doing tricep extensions etc.

Which exercise(s) would allow you to use more weight:

a) The OPs exercise
b) The powersnatch and bent over row

If you come to the same conclusion as me, namely that b) allows more weight, which exercises do you think will benefit the development of muscular strength and power more? The answer is b) as well, because exercises that allow more weight, will also allow more progress over a longer period of time. Making the transfer of that strength to the bike is going to be accomplished with doing stuff on the bike (specificity), but the physical prerequisites in terms of muscle strength are best developed in the weight room with solid exercises that allow a lot of weight to be moved over a great range of motion and with the use of the most muscle mass possible.

315
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: The PR's/PB's, videos, pictures, and daily achievements thread
« on: May 20, 2011, 06:24:55 pm »
Glad you guys like it!

@adarq: I actually got inspired by you with the socks sometime last year and wear them very often, usually when I do olympic lifts or for jumping. I actually have been wearing long socks for every volleyball competition for the entire last season. They are just awesome!

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