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Messages - steven-miller

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286
So far:

Squat: 132 lbs x 5 to 435 lbs x 5
SVJ: ~27" to 36"

I got mine from ~20 inches to 30 while taking my squat from 80kgx5 (90 1RM) at 67 kg bodyweight to 120kgx5 (135 1RM) at 82 kg bodyweight. So as you can see that's a 10 inch increase in SVJ and I'm still under 2x in terms of squatting strength. Once and if I ever get to 2.5x I should have ~38-40.

So it's all a matter of strength, strength application and structure as the most important factors (if we're to ignore the factors I talked about in my previous post). So basically it depends IF you can increase your strength as far as a 2x-2.5x squat to reach your genetic limit more or less.

I do not agree with that and I also cannot see how this is related to the debate at all.

287
On how many people is this based on and how did you come up with the formula?

288
So far:

Squat: 132 lbs x 5 to 435 lbs x 5
SVJ: ~27" to 36"

289
So your argument is that making estimations in life where the dependent variable is influenced by lots of factors is "stupid" and "launching numbers around"?

So I guess then that predicting the weather is stupid, predicting stock values is stupid, predicting demographic development is stupid, analyzing the intellectual potential of a child is stupid, etc.



What, you don't have an answer for what I said and you came up with this? :ninja:


I thought I addressed the main point of your post, namely that having a model for something and making estimations with it was "stupid". I do not agree with that, because I have use for estimations. If you don't, that's fine.

What else should I comment on?

290
So your argument is that making estimations in life where the dependent variable is influenced by lots of factors is "stupid" and "launching numbers around"?

So I guess then that predicting the weather is stupid, predicting stock values is stupid, predicting demographic development is stupid, analyzing the intellectual potential of a child is stupid, etc.


291
Hm, so let's see:

If I have a 9 inch vertical jump, I can expect to get to 12 (+30%) but that's pretty much it? And the more I can SVJ the more I gain, right?

If I have a standing 50 inch vertical jump, getting to 66 inch (+30%) would not be impossible, right?

So if I suck having a 9 inch vert I actually have a much lower ceiling of growth than if I were to jump 50 because 30% of a small number is less than 30% of a higher number.

See how idiotic this gets?

If you take a guy who has a 0.7 bodyweight squat and jumps 16 inches and get him to 2.5x, would you expect him to get 30% more on his SVJ OR would you expect him to possibly double that or more?

Estimations like that are never accurate at the extremes. You would not measure the height of the Eiffel Tower or the size of a brain cell with a ruler either. It can measure distances, but it is not meant to do so at extremely long or short ones. The same reason applies here. Unless the population you derived your rule of thumb from had sufficiently many athletes with SVJs <10 and >49, your rule of thumb will not apply to those people.
Now, you MIGHT have a point here, but only if you can propose a better model than the percentage based one. Go ahead.

292
Didn't see this before, but how is there a certain truth to his argument? If one person proved him wrong, there is 0 truth to his argument. He's never trained anyone to jump high because that isn't their goal. Ok. He shouldn't be making the claims he did then.

When we are talking in absolute terms you are right, he would be proven wrong by anyone who increased their SVJ by more than X %, something he claimed to be impossible. But if people would see beyond that number and grasp the actual thought behind it, there would not be as much controversy about that topic. The thought being that in reality most people fail to increase their SVJs by more than a small margin. When Kelly, who hardly anyone here would not see as an expert in the matter, comes here and says that the typical improvement he tells his clients about is 30% in a reasonable time frame, what does that tell you? It tells ME that certain people who have an interest in increasing their jump and are motivated enough about it to do some research and actually contact Kelly Bagget to ask for advice or even pay for his services, are untypical to improve their SVJs by much more than 30%, despite the fact that they are a preselected group of athletes to begin with and are provided with solid training information as well.
Can we conclude from that, that X% is the maximum of possible improvement? Of course not and even one black swan is enough to prove that statement bullshit. But what can be said is that X% might be typical, what most of the time happens in a certain population with a specific training goal. In Rip's population >X% happens less often than maybe in Lance's population and that probably has a number of reasons, one of which you have mentioned yourself. But the general idea behind giving such a number to a trainee that is starting out is to give him a realistic expectation to work with and not tell him that he is likely to increase his SVJ by 50% because one person on adarq.org has done so.

The biggest issue with those statements of Rip were phrases like "impossible", "every", etc. I can understand that people have a problem with that, especially when it concerns themselves. The discussion would be more fruitful however if people would stop pointing the finger at Rip for making a claim that was doomed to be proven wrong by someone from the beginning and instead concentrate on what was, I believe, actually meant by it. Namely what is typical, what generally happens etc.

Now, questions like "In which populations is that the case?", "What are predictors for success above the average?", "What might be the effect of treating the SVJ as diagnostic tool vs. as athletic skill to be practiced?" etc. are actually meaningful topics that could have been debated if it wasn't for the stubbornness on both sides to prove the other side wrong.

I sincerely hope that there will be a meaningful debate about the half-squat and its value as SPP exercise, about possible and typical SVJ improvements etc. once we have made our case study.

293
If that were true I'd have a 2x squat since 3 years ago. If it was as simple as putting a bar on your back and doing your workout and your squat will increase liniarly.

Well man, what can I say? I guess you are right then, I have been wrong all the time and you will never have a 2x bw squat ever, regardless of what you do.

294
Wait, wasn't you the one who said I could increase my squat liniarily for a long period of time just doing 3x5? Like I have your monster body and adaptability? I mean, you were the one who took the exception (yourself) and apply that to everybody, saying everybody can increase their squat each workout until they reach ~2x (you didn't say 2x, but a much higher squat than what I currently have). If it were that easy we would all have 2x squats.

I'm saying this because you say the same stuff of "exceptions" about SVJ, but don't think the same thing when it comes to squatting.

If you're able to increase your squat like that you're probably able to increase your SVJ a lot like that too.

Yes, that was me and it is likely true. Having the physical capacity to do something and actually doing it (which means having motivational aspects in check as well, not getting injured, do what is necessary etc.) are different things however.

295
The only stupid thing is people still not understanding the difference between VJ as diagnostic tool and training for it specifically (despite the fact that it was brought up several times now) and that Rippetoe's primary experience is with the former. And obviously you cannot come and claim to have doubled your SVJ when your pre test measure is as 15 year old and your post test measure is as adult 5 years later (because of drastic biological changes not attributed to training).

I think that Kelly brought a very good perspective into this debate, namely that of a coach with the experience to say what constitutes the typical improvement, within a time frame people are typically willing to commit to such a goal. Statements and predictions of what is maximally possible are always doomed to be proven wrong and most, like Rippetoe in this case, might drastically underestimate what is possible because of their much larger exposure to the typical. Yet people here might perceive that cases like vag and kingfish are completely normal, but obviously that is not the case either.

296
I am refering to the german translation of the 3rd edition from 2008.

I bought the book quite a while ago since it was often times recommended and the name Zatsiorsky certainly bears some weight. As the name suggests the authors tried to bridge the gap between the science of strength training and its application in practice, however one more time one comes to the conclusion that the gap is far too big to overcome at this point in time. While the scientific portions of the book involve interesting ideas, often times unproven hypothesises are provided as fact. One example would be the role of the Golgi Tendon Organ in stretch-shortening cycle activities, which is, at least to my understanding, not completely agreed on by the scientific community at this point in time.
On the other hand, the practical portions of the book mainly consist of observations of what trainers typically do or believe or have done in the past. While that is certainly not worthless, it is not particularly enlightening regarding the whys of them doing so and it also does not provide any information whether the current practice is actually good. Most practical examples are also taken from the context of elite athletes (for example of the former soviet union) without taking into account the problems that go hand in hand with applying that to novice or intermediate trainees.
The goal of the book is explicitly not to provide a training methodology for any kind of athlete or make concrete perscriptions. But I then have to ask: What IS the purpose of the book? It neither provides a sound scientific discussion of theories nor does it provide good practical advice for coaches or athletes.
It is what it is and not everything in the book is without worth. Knowing what elite athletes have done in the past to get to those performances is certainly interesting, although I doubt that this has many clear implications for a population that is NOT elite. I also do not think that looking at the past is necessarily the best way of determining an optimal training philosophy. That would have been a task for exercise science during the last decades, albeit it has produced only little research of value for even the most basic questions.

What's your opinions on the book? Am I way off here?

297
Is that sufficient for you?

Thank you for answering my question. It is very enlightening that those are the areas you have the most expertise in and on which basis that is as well.

298
JC, in which areas does your opinion have validity?

Which opinion? My views on training have no affect on Rippetoe's views about bodyfat percentage.

brb not being able to criticize obama because I'm not a president

I did not imply that you should not criticize Rip. I asked in which field your views have validity?

What views? I didn't give an opinion in this thread.

JC, are you trolling me or are you actually incapable of understanding such a simple question? I shall paraphrase it again for you:

I want to know in which areas (or fields, or disciplines, etc.) your opinion, regardless if it was voiced anywhere or not, has validity. In other words, where do you have the necessary expertise to voice a valid opinion? On which topics, in which areas of knowledge, etc.

299
JC, in which areas does your opinion have validity?

Which opinion? My views on training have no affect on Rippetoe's views about bodyfat percentage.

brb not being able to criticize obama because I'm not a president

I did not imply that you should not criticize Rip. I asked in which field your views have validity?

300
JC, in which areas does your opinion have validity?

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