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Messages - TKXII

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256
Pics, Videos, & Links / Re: beast
« on: April 22, 2012, 06:28:45 pm »
The dunks thread should be moved here then. The beast thread is nice to look at before workouts so I thought I'd post that dunk here even though it has been seen before.

Justin Gatlin '03 6.46: 26 strides
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycZoWeR_yT8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycZoWeR_yT8</a>

Gatlin 2012: 27 strides
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TrHCkEqfDI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TrHCkEqfDI</a>

257
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« on: April 15, 2012, 10:17:40 pm »
time to try that turmeric root?

258
Injury, Prehab, & Rehab talk for the brittlebros / Re: posterior shin splints just does not go away
« on: April 15, 2012, 10:14:35 pm »
hey its not going to build his bone but might provde some relief. turmeric is powerful

259
Injury, Prehab, & Rehab talk for the brittlebros / Re: posterior shin splints just does not go away
« on: April 13, 2012, 07:57:41 pm »
turmeric, MSM.

go to an indian store and get turmeric root, it's less bitter than the powder. WIth powder mix some in hot water, or even simmer for a few min.

MSM has worked great for my knees but I don't think it necesarily helps with shin splits. It works well for joints because joits have a high amount of sulfates (highly anionic compounds), and the MSM suppl,ements that qute directly.
TUrmeric is a great anti-inflammatory. Ibuprofen is a piece of shit.

260
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Average workout duration
« on: April 13, 2012, 07:53:29 pm »
Raptor has a good point. It's good that people are so willing to help thogh. I notice that whenever someone asks a question about their routine, people jump on it right away. THis is good.

To reduce the number of questions, I would say just follow instincts. Some of us look at it too analytically. I think the idea of counting reps is unecessary. Grount contacts? Doesn't matter. Workout ountil your performance deproves (no it's not a real word but it should be i think).

I've done 1 set of bounding in a workout (well two total because I switched legs), and saw an improvement the next workout. Plyos are not only about physiological changes in tissue, but also neurological changes. So it doesn't take much.

Trying to achieve a 5th rep, or a 70th ground contact could be detrimental to performance. For example, if you are at rep 50, and notice that you are jumping slower, you're not going to see any additional benefit in your explosiveness from doing those reps unless they come from collagen restructiring and increasing thickness of tendons, i.e. physiological changes. They also will train your nervous system differently since they will be slower. Just imagine crossfit box jumps.

Striving for a 5th rep, will result in a very slow grinding rep, and it may make you stronger, but it may have no greater effect than a faster set of 4 reps without the extra 5th, nd may reinforce a slow motor pattern. Sometimes there is a threshold in a workout for the gains, it isn't all dose dependent. But if you just want strength, it probably will help. FOr hypertrophy, it will most probably help too.

261
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Kadour Ziani's Legs
« on: April 11, 2012, 12:57:25 am »
Quote from: Raptor on April 10, 2012, 06:54:01 pm
Yeah the one-leg jump is a bit different... it does require strength but it's more of an isometric nature (which is still generated by muscle strength). Still, that's all a muscle "needs to take care of" in a reactive (not voluntary propelled concentrically) one-leg VJ - immediately "lock in isometrically" and then the tendons do the rest (more exactly, the accumulated speed in the run-up does the rest as far as where the energy to go upwards is coming from - you still need the energy to go up there, but you use the energy that already exists in the form of run-up speed and you only need to convert it to vertical torque).

To be honest with you, I don't completely understand the phenomenon. But like Joel Smith said, explosive-isometric is a pretty good term for what happens to the muscles in the one-leg jump - they need to turn on extremely fast and they need to be strong enough to maintain the jumping leg's straight position for the best lever you can get (meaning - to prevent collapse at the ankle, knee or hip).

The thing is - I'm not sure what strength training really does to help this cause. I mean, in a high speed plant the forces on the loaded leg are 8-10x bodyweight. You can't simulate that stuff in the weight room. It's not like you're going to squat or lunge 10x. They also happen in a very short time span (as the amortization phase is very, very short) - so as far as specificity goes... the weight room is far and away from what you need.

Still, a bigger, stronger muscle helps since it should be able to better support the forces in the plant. But if you become accustomed to the eccentric-concentric stuff you usually do in the weight room, and at a slow pace, you can only wonder how that is going to really help specifically in a one-leg jump at a high speed.

I think it's best to work on muscle hypertrophy in the gym for a short while and then pretty much do jumps/sprints that actually use a explosive-isometric regime for your muscles. Bigger muscles + proper "regime" should equal success.

I cant believe it. I need not say more. You said it very well.

I wonder what the exact mechanism is. Have you loked that up? I've seen studies back in the day showing collagen hypertrophy from plyos, but I don't want to go out on a limb and say things that incite a lot of confusion such as, Kadour Ziani relies on 0 muscle strength (actually I love to say things like that), and is purely a tendon jumper. What does that mean?

In triple jumping, the second phase of the maneuver, the "skip," creates forces 17+x bodyweight, up to 22x, in one study on a group of triple jumpers (in finland I think). So this type of training is doing something completely different from what we typically think of as "strength," but of course in the end the muscle is contracting.. but to say that Kadour Ziani has strong glutes is completely ignoring all the other structures that enable his muscles to contract so quickly and forcefully in a short time frame. Again, I don't know the exact physiology of this.

262
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Kadour Ziani's Legs
« on: April 10, 2012, 06:30:44 pm »
Someone said it right, and brought up new issues.

So if Kadour gets "stronger" due to flexibility, it does not mean he gets stronger inthe same way as through weight training. THe mechanisms are different, and may have different results as well. So it's not a paradox when I say strength in the weight room doesn't always matter for vertical jump, but flexibility may help Kadour Ziani get hops (perhaps maybe due to strength), because they are totally different.

So in conclusion, for the third time, kadour ziani's muscles aren't what contributes majorly to his vertical jump as it would for someone who strength-trained. His limb leverages have nothing to do with it (has anyone defined what limb leverages are optimal for high jumping...?). He has trained hard, through means which none of you fucking dumb pieces of shit udnerstand, and has seen results. He does not jump high off of two feet. He only jumps high off of 1 foot, only with a fast run-up, like a high jumper.

Also for everyone else who likes to prove themselves right and ride on false egos, strength training has been shown over and over again ti increase vertical jump. When I said the opposite, what I am bringing up is that strength training does not have to automatically increase vertical jump, of course it can help with two footed jumping but one footed jumping is another issue entirely.  Furthermore, when we're talking about kadour ziani, vertical jump means jumping like a high jumper. Deep squatting and deadlifting are not popular techniques among high jumpers. They are good for those who train vertical jump as a two footed vertical jump. Most high jumpers also have shitty SVJs.

And steven, just like everyone else on the forum who critically thinks with their amygdala and sensitive emotions, you are proving yourself to no where land. Here are problems with everything you wrote.

1. I agree that fleixbility training as not been shown to be an effective procedure for increaseing vertical jump. THere are about 2 studies in the literature that I'm aware of on this topic. What I said is that there may be mechanisms that you are not aware of that have helped Kadour jump really high with flexibility training.
2. No it does not matter that those studies were done on untrained individuals. the leg pres issue also does not matter. What matters is that a mechanism exists, and perhaps it helps Kadour jump higher. that's my whole point...I didn't say it DEFINITELY DOES HELP kadour ziani jump higher, but I do not think it's wise to dismiss his flexibility training (4 hours a day when he used to do it if he still does), as having no effect on his hops.
3. I did not ever recommend any vertical jump increasing method in any of my posts, so I don't know why you wrote:
"Just because there are characteristics that correlate with VJ besides force production DOES NOT TELL US that trying to improve those characteristics is an effective or efficient approach to train for VJ. "

That is irrelevant. Furthermore, it's wrong. I didn't say it has nothing to do with force production. Of course it has to do with force production, but more importantly, we need to know the means of force production. People who can jump high without weight training, but just plyos (possibly stretching for Kadour), are not just achieving high rates of force production with their muscles. They have tendons that assist them, period.


I did not want to talk about standing verticals, or two footed trianing, but single leg which we all know is quite different.

263
Peer Reviewed Studies Discussion / Static stretch training and muscle strength
« on: April 09, 2012, 10:23:41 pm »
All studies on static stretch programs show increases in 1RM

Even if only one side is stretched. Mechanism?
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2012/03000/A_10_Week_Stretching_Program_Increases_Strength_in.33.aspx

Chronic Static Stretching Improves Exercise Performance
http://www.nasm.org/1/HFPN/Research_Library/Research_Summaries/Flexibility/Chronic_Static_Stretching_Improves_Exercise_Performance/





http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21969080
J Strength Cond Res. 2011 Dec;25(12):3391-8.
Resistance training vs. static stretching: effects on flexibility and strength.
Morton SK, Whitehead JR, Brinkert RH, Caine DJ.
Source
Department of Physical Education, Exercise Science, and Wellness (PXW), University of North Dakota, Grand Forks, North Dakota, USA.
Abstract
Morton, SK, Whitehead, JR, Brinkert, RH, and Caine, DJ. Resistance training vs. static stretching: Effects on flexibility and strength. J Strength Cond Res 25(12): 3391-3398, 2011-The purpose of this study was to determine how full-range resistance training (RT) affected flexibility and strength compared to static stretching (SS) of the same muscle-joint complexes in untrained adults. Volunteers (n = 25) were randomized to an RT or SS training group. A group of inactive volunteers (n = 12) served as a convenience control group (CON). After pretesting hamstring extension, hip flexion and extension, shoulder extension flexibility, and peak torque of quadriceps and hamstring muscles, subjects completed 5-week SS or RT treatments in which the aim was to stretch or to strength train the same muscle-joint complexes over similar movements and ranges. Posttests of flexibility and strength were then conducted. There was no difference in hamstring flexibility, hip flexion, and hip extension improvement between RT and SS, but both were superior to CON values. There were no differences between groups on shoulder extension flexibility. The RT group was superior to the CON in knee extension peak torque, but there were no differences between groups on knee flexion peak torque. The results of this preliminary study suggest that carefully constructed full-range RT regimens can improve flexibility as well as the typical SS regimens employed in conditioning programs. Because of the potential practical significance of these results to strength and conditioning programs, further studies using true experimental designs, larger sample sizes, and longer training durations should be conducted with the aim of confirming or disproving these results

Can't get full text to above - results are ambiguous. If anyone can get full text let me know

264
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Kadour Ziani's Legs
« on: April 09, 2012, 10:14:53 pm »
http://www.nasm.org/1/HFPN/Research_Library/Research_Summaries/Flexibility/Chronic_Static_Stretching_Improves_Exercise_Performance/


265
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Kadour Ziani's Legs
« on: April 09, 2012, 10:08:40 pm »
Quote from: steven-miller on April 09, 2012, 10:53:07 am
Threads like this are disturbing as hell. There is one guy that jumps really high and is really flexible and for people like Harvey the connection is immediately formed that more flexibility leads to a higher vertical. While strength increases have been shown over and over again to lead to higher vertical jumps (something that Harvey does not seem to believe), I do not know of similar cases where people just increased their flexibility and then jumped higher.

When Ziani would only eat grass, would you then conclude that his high VJ has something to do with his eating habits?





What in the fucking shit are you talking about. There are COUNTLESS INNUMERABLE examples of athletes that are weak as SHIT in the weight room who jump HIGH AS FUCK.

Strength training has NOT been shown over and  over again to increase vertical jump. It does work, but some athletes have other means of jumping higher. As long as they exist, we know that there are other mechanisms besides higher force production as a result of force training such as squatting and deadlifting that increase explosiveness and vertical jump.

Kadour Ziani is not just "one guy." He's one guy who claims to only stretch to increase his hops (except for that stretch expert guy with a 14'' vertical on youtube), but not the only guy who doesn't strength train and can jump incredible high.

No of course no one would suggest eating grass makes him jump higher. Stretching is in no way analogous to eating grass.

Here is just one study showing that STATIC STRETCHING CAN INCREASE MUSCLE STRENGTH, AS MUCH AS RESISTANCE TRAINING

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21969080

J Strength Cond Res. 2011 Dec;25(12):3391-8.
Resistance training vs. static stretching: effects on flexibility and strength.
Morton SK, Whitehead JR, Brinkert RH, Caine DJ.
Source
Department of Physical Education, Exercise Science, and Wellness (PXW), University of North Dakota, Grand Forks, North Dakota, USA.
Abstract
Morton, SK, Whitehead, JR, Brinkert, RH, and Caine, DJ. Resistance training vs. static stretching: Effects on flexibility and strength. J Strength Cond Res 25(12): 3391-3398, 2011-The purpose of this study was to determine how full-range resistance training (RT) affected flexibility and strength compared to static stretching (SS) of the same muscle-joint complexes in untrained adults. Volunteers (n = 25) were randomized to an RT or SS training group. A group of inactive volunteers (n = 12) served as a convenience control group (CON). After pretesting hamstring extension, hip flexion and extension, shoulder extension flexibility, and peak torque of quadriceps and hamstring muscles, subjects completed 5-week SS or RT treatments in which the aim was to stretch or to strength train the same muscle-joint complexes over similar movements and ranges. Posttests of flexibility and strength were then conducted. There was no difference in hamstring flexibility, hip flexion, and hip extension improvement between RT and SS, but both were superior to CON values. There were no differences between groups on shoulder extension flexibility. The RT group was superior to the CON in knee extension peak torque, but there were no differences between groups on knee flexion peak torque. The results of this preliminary study suggest that carefully constructed full-range RT regimens can improve flexibility as well as the typical SS regimens employed in conditioning programs. Because of the potential practical significance of these results to strength and conditioning programs, further studies using true experimental designs, larger sample sizes, and longer training durations should be conducted with the aim of confirming or disproving these results.

266
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Kadour Ziani's Legs
« on: April 09, 2012, 10:03:33 pm »
What is unfortunate about most people is how much they think they know. When their beliefs are challenged they changed the argument.

I already completely DESTROYED the idea that ziani is strong. He can't squat shit. prove me wrong. He can't deadlift shit either.
I STRONGLY SUGGESTED that he has strong tendons, but I have no proof. The way he jumps makes it pretty obvoius he jumps like a high jumper and has similar mechanisms for jumping higher, none of which include strength training and squatting to increase vert.

If anyone can prove that stretching does not increase vertical jump once and for all, do it now. Kadour Ziani doesn't have above average flexibility, he has SUPER BEAST FLEXIBILITY. There's a difference.

I'm being really moderate here. I did not state anything as a fact as usual, everyone else just gets mad when I call them idiots. All i suggest is a HYPOTHESIS. Everyone ELSE thinks they know. Only fools think they know anything.

EDIT: i'm not saying high jumpers don't strength train. But a lot of their programs turn them into "tendon jumpers," and I think there are some serious physiological changes that take place. I wish adarq would comment on this shit.

267
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Kadour Ziani's Legs
« on: April 09, 2012, 08:43:25 am »
Quote from: D4 on April 08, 2012, 11:32:25 pm
Quote from: Avishek on April 08, 2012, 09:22:35 pm
:uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm:


you idiots use the word strength too much. kadour Ziani is not strong. He is fast. He develops force quickly in milliseconds, not under seconds under a squat rack with his glutes and quads. I wonder what his tendons look like, and his hip bones, but I feel like he jumps high due to the elastic properties of his tendons and bones in his hips.

As a result of his elastic and probably stiff tendons, he may be able to develop a lot of force, but to think they come from his muscles is just plain wrong. The tendons are the structures that allow the muscles to stretch and produce the force. I read some papers on thsi stuff while ago I forget now.

Also whoever said his flexibility may hinder his performance needs a reference. I understand that acutely stretching hinders power output. But improving fleixbility in the long run usually increases musclee strength.





If you're referring to my flexibility post, then you need to learn how to read.  I said a LACK of flexibility can hinder your vertical.  If you weren't referring to me, then nevermind.


Maybe what you said about his tendons and etc.. are all correct, and they probably are.  But what makes you so sure he doesn't have a lot of strength?  You worked out with him in the weight room before?  You checked out his physique under his shorts before?  You sound so sure about what makes him jump high as if you've studied his entire body in person.  Of course strength isn't always the reason for a high vertical, but it doesn't mean it CAN't be the reason.
yes I am referring to you. I don't need to read I read really fast. You said that his stretching deos not contribute to his vert. How do you know this? How do you know that his stretching his foot up and past his head does not create microtears in his tendons that make them thicker and more elastic?

268
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Kadour Ziani's Legs
« on: April 09, 2012, 08:40:55 am »
Yo that's an awesome pic. How come I haven't seen that. Lemme know if you have the link I'll put it on my facebook.


JDUB only exist because I exists. My posts give life to him. Otherwise, he is a useless grub you're right D4. I'm so powerful that I'm able to control people like this.

I didn't say he has no strength. I said he has strength in a short time frame, which is basically power. But power would not even be appropriate beacuse the time frame for him to develop force is so small you might as well just call him quick. But tryin to islate his quads or glutes frmo the action and saying his glutes are strong is just moronic. I can't beleive this nonsense. I can deadlift more than he does so I have stronger glutes but I can't do that because I don't stretch 5 hours a day.

Since he uses so much speed in his plant, it's clearly not just his muscles. He would be a great high jumper of coruse. So whatever the mechanism for that, is what applies to kadour. Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.


269
Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Kadour Ziani's Legs
« on: April 08, 2012, 09:22:35 pm »
 :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm:


you idiots use the word strength too much. kadour Ziani is not strong. He is fast. He develops force quickly in milliseconds, not under seconds under a squat rack with his glutes and quads. I wonder what his tendons look like, and his hip bones, but I feel like he jumps high due to the elastic properties of his tendons and bones in his hips.

As a result of his elastic and probably stiff tendons, he may be able to develop a lot of force, but to think they come from his muscles is just plain wrong. The tendons are the structures that allow the muscles to stretch and produce the force. I read some papers on thsi stuff while ago I forget now.

Also whoever said his flexibility may hinder his performance needs a reference. I understand that acutely stretching hinders power output. But improving fleixbility in the long run usually increases musclee strength.




270
Nutrition & Supplementation / Re: Cheat days on a weight/fat loss diet
« on: April 08, 2012, 08:42:30 pm »
Quote from: TheSituation on April 08, 2012, 07:47:34 pm
Avishek has to be a troll

lol at you trying to use yourself as anecdotal evidence to "prove" your theories. You look like shit. Me, and many others who follow IIFYM completely embarrass you in terms of mass, leanness, and strength. But that doesn't mean anything.

Keep cryin little one.


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