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Messages - TKXII

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16
Article & Video Discussion / Re: Eccentric Strength Training on Increasing Strength, RFD, and Power
« on: November 18, 2013, 01:44:53 pm »
My legs were usually shot after squats so there was no way I could do max jumping, and even regular jumping.

My first two months training for vert, 5 years or so ago resulted in a 7.5-8inch increase in vert in 8 weeks with no jump training with minimal jumping but my running vert stayed the same because my movement efficiency back then was horrible. For SVJ i don't know if it's necessary to practice it that often, however f/v time curves of RVJ is completely different and requires more than muscle strength than SVJ in proportion to tendon elasticity and stiffness.

Have you measured your RVJ? 

Yes ian that's what I mean, in short. It's difficult in my experience to train tendon stiffness with muscle strength for whatever reason but yea be consistent with jumps + squats and see where you can go.

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Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: Kingfush
« on: November 18, 2013, 01:14:30 pm »
rvjs get you broken? could you elaborate on this I'm not sure what you mean.

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Article & Video Discussion / Re: Eccentric Strength Training on Increasing Strength, RFD, and Power
« on: November 17, 2013, 09:06:00 pm »
Kelly Baggett's analysis is wrong.

You get slower due to slower rate of force development, not excessive bodyweight. This is a FACT. I can even scan graphs documenting this from Zatsiorsky's textbook, but it's pretty obvious.

I didn't jump because I couldn't, I didn't feel like it because the motor pattern took over, as it does for most people here who get into lifting heavy. People become preoccupied with it and forget their original goals, to DUNK, and be an explosive beast, not a fat piece of steroid injected shit who deadlifts 1000 lbs... yet that's what you guys like to post in the beast thread, un-athletic fat powerlifters and olympic lifters, nothing to do with athleticism whatsoever.

Bagget's analysis about the athlete with 135 max squat vs another athlete with 300lb max squat is also incorrect. I could "throw around" 185lbs in a jump squat more easily when I practiced doing it while my max squat was barely over 225lbs, better than when I improved my max squat to 341lbs (while gaining only 4lbs), this is simply because the exercises are totally different and require totally different forces at different joint angles from muscles and tendons.

I'm not advocating lifting light weights, but I'm against the idea of heavy strength training being the only way to get faster and more explosive. Most people who do it don't become that explosive and just inflate their 40yd dash times and VJ numbers to make it seem as if they're more explosive. I haven't seen many deep squatters who are athletic. Most great athletes do half squats while is a more specific joint angle to jumping and sprinting.

My advice is to pick 2 primary strength exercises, and stick with those. If you like squats and deadlifts do them, but make sure to do high power exercises. The power output of a vertical jump is much higher than that in a max squat. Training just vertical jump doesn't work, but training just the strength aspect doesn't either, the velocity must be trained and that's what I see is the biggest deficiency in the programs of people on this forum. However traiing velocity and strength seem to compete from my experience which is one major problem. Your program looks solid enough.

19
Article & Video Discussion / Re: Eccentric Strength Training on Increasing Strength, RFD, and Power
« on: November 17, 2013, 10:29:11 am »
It's pretty cumbersome to do this with squats. I've tried it before with a leg press, but I did it single legged so I could lift it back up with two feet. i was sore for 5 days and my legs clearly hypertrophied over that period of time. But as LBSS has said, if you haven't done much conventional training, don't do anything crazy. I did something like this when I first started and developed piriformis syndrome, I still have it, but it's not bad anymore.

About this article, the author of that report suggests that eccentric training will help with producing muscle power mainly due to the increased hypertrophy and length of the muscle. He goes on to say that any increase in muscle size will improve muscle power in high speed movements, no matter what. I cannot tell you how far this is from the truth. He mentions tendon stiffness very briefly in the end.

I'm still uncertain now how physiologically muscles and tendons produce more power from either strength training or plyos or both, and how strength training transfers over to high power activities, but one thing that is clear to me is that heavy resistance training makes muscles slower. There is obviously a conversion of type iib fibers to iia, but beyond that rate coding is slower. People on this forum will tell you to get stronger and stronger... but whether or not that's right for you really depends on your body type. Furthermore many people on this forum get so interested in strength training, they don't do much jumping and continue to get slower and more strength dominant.

Shorter stockier legs, shorter toes, indicates strength dominance, less tendon elasticity in general... so ST might be a better route (maybe). Longer legs, longer toes may indicate greater tendon elasticity and plyos may benefit you more, or rather, you may respond to plyos better. There are plenty of athletes that only do plyos and become high fliers and can't squat shit. But that doesn't work for us for the most part. Similarly, getting "stronger," and I put that in quotes because muscle strength gained in a squat doesn't transfer over to a running vertical jump for everyone the same way so the "strength" being applied during the jump is questionable, doesn't work for everyone either. You hear a few success stories here and there (Kingfush on this forum but i haven't seen his running vert not sure if it exists or his sprint times but if you want to squat to improve your vert, take at least 2 years and devote yourself to weightlifting. Many here take that route, and I haven't seen a single success story yet except for kingfish. As a newbie on this forum, I want you to synthesize your own ideas, like I did, instead of being sucked into the dominant paradigm.

Getting stronger over the past two years (not being able to squat 225 to being able to double 315lbs for two sets) made me slower, and decreased my running vertical jump. But I didn't sprint or jump at the same time. Currently, i am improving my lunge strength (right now doing 190lbs with each leg with dumbells) while doing plyos so we'll see how that goes.

My best vert has been obtained before I could squat 225 comfortably for reps, and afterwards. So clearly something is going on other than muscle size that helps produce "power."

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Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: Kingfush
« on: November 17, 2013, 10:25:05 am »
are you still planning on training for the 60m? have you ever timed a 40yd dash? would be curious to see how your beastly legs perform!

21
Pics, Videos, & Links / Re: Bobsled training and 60m times
« on: November 16, 2013, 10:56:39 pm »
nope, I simply acknowledged what you said and revised my original statement. that's not a contradiction.

22
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« on: November 16, 2013, 09:39:50 pm »
Quote from: Raptor on November 16, 2013, 09:18:53 pm
It doesn't need to be more complicated than movement efficiency + horsepower + structure as far as vertical jump goes.

defining horsepower is what is complicated. Can horsepower specific to vertical jump through consistently be improved? Can jumping with weights consistently improve horsepower or does heavy strength training need to be performed to increase jumping with weights? It would be cool to compile a list of vertical jump success stories and see how many improved through a lot of strength training and how many did more plyos. Cuz I'm starting to doubt the efficacy of maximal strength training.

23
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« on: November 16, 2013, 08:44:12 pm »
Quote from: Raptor on November 16, 2013, 07:43:49 pm
Quote from: Avishek on November 16, 2013, 02:23:22 pm
Yea I can believe that, could you bring up that evidence then?

One error I saw in the document I posted is the experiment they did with loaded depth jumps. They concluded that since athletes did not jump as high with a loaded depth jump it wasn't an effective exercise. Well we know that he ground reaction force will equal the mass of the athlete times gravity. The grf produced from a 3.5 drop landing can be matched with a loaded landing from a lesser drop in an infinite number of ways.

However on the concentric portion the question arises how the muscle-tendon unit differs in restitution the energy absorbed. Compare even further to a squat, I haven't seen research (haven't really looked though) examining how the energy restitution in the tendons differs from shock plyos, weighted plyos, and lifting

http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/plyomyths.html

haha yea I also like it when I get more posts on my journal.

anyway raptor, I think horsepower is also a myth. I haven't trained anyone consistently for vertical jump so I can't say what works for most people, but I'm willing to accept that for most people building horsepower works, but from my experience that is too simple to be close to the truth on the matter.

I'll move the physics stuff to another thread.

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Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« on: November 16, 2013, 06:41:12 pm »
wow great response, my physics knowledge is elementary here.

So that's my question, how are the forces involved in  a loaded depth jump different than an unloaded depth jump when the GRFs are the same?

GRF 100kg athlete dropping from 1m GRF who takes 0.15s to decelerate from 4.4m/s =
440/0.15 + 981 = 3914N

So the exact mass the athlete would need to add to produce the same GRF from only a 0.5m drop:
v = 3.1m/s

rearranging grf= mv/t +ma
grf/(v/t +a) = m

you get 27.5kg the athlete would have to add. But my question is, would the time it takes for the athlete to decelerate be the same?

Then furthermore as you mentioned, the time it takes to produce force by the athlete would certainly be less, increasing ground contact time, but not necessarily deceleration time, the time used to measure the GRF.

edit: then another question is, is the GRF produced even important to consider in training for jumps?
How do quick depth jumps versus maximal height depth jumps differ in their GRFs?
I would think that quick depth jumps that emphasize minimal ground contact time would produce greater GRFs upon landing than depth jumps form the same height involving jumping as high as possible, but then how would the muscle-tendon unit be trained differently form those two types of jumps? Would there be any benefit to using a speed depth jump when it results in shorter jump height?



25
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« on: November 16, 2013, 02:23:22 pm »
Yea I can believe that, could you bring up that evidence then?

One error I saw in the document I posted is the experiment they did with loaded depth jumps. They concluded that since athletes did not jump as high with a loaded depth jump it wasn't an effective exercise. Well we know that he ground reaction force will equal the mass of the athlete times gravity. The grf produced from a 3.5 drop landing can be matched with a loaded landing from a lesser drop in an infinite number of ways.

However on the concentric portion the question arises how the muscle-tendon unit differs in restitution the energy absorbed. Compare even further to a squat, I haven't seen research (haven't really looked though) examining how the energy restitution in the tendons differs from shock plyos, weighted plyos, and lifting

26
Pics, Videos, & Links / Re: Bobsled training and 60m times
« on: November 16, 2013, 02:16:11 pm »
Haha no it's not. This is my argument. Modified a bit to be more fair. 

1. Bobsleigh athletes are the fastest in the world for any sport other than sprinting.
2. The average speed on any bobsleigh team is after than for any other team in any other sport except for sprinting.
3. The fastest bobsleigh athletes are among the fastest athletes in the world including sprint athletes and the fastest American football players.
4. Bobsleigh athletes are also among the most powerful athletes in the world based on their performances in the broad jump and power clean.

27
Progress Journals & Experimental Routines / Re: acole14's journal - DUNK OR DIE
« on: November 16, 2013, 10:53:03 am »
The point of depth jumps is to shock the muscles/tendons into absorbing forces greater than that would be achieved in regular jumping. This can only be achieved if you are dropping from a height greater than your rebound height, or your vertical jump. On page 20 of this document, the link to which can be found in a thread on the "Article & Video Discussion" section, a 2.5 foot drop was recommended in order to improve explosive capabilities of the muscle, and a 3.5 foot drop was recommended for improving maximal strength characteristics of the muscle. I haven't finished reading the whole thing yet, but the idea is that in one study they found that depth jumps increased maximal strength of the muscle, isometric and explosive strength.
http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

I'd also stop depth jumping on the mat. The mat is absorbing forces that your muscles and tendons are supposed to absorb in the exercise. The exercise is supposed to make you more elastic, meaning, you are training the restitution of energy in your muscle-tendon units. By having the mat absorb forces, you are training the muscles' contractile abilities in producing force more than you would without jumping on the mat. Similar to training in sand I'd bet.


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Pics, Videos, & Links / Re: Bobsled training and 60m times
« on: November 15, 2013, 11:41:49 am »


They are definitely not amongst the most powerful athletes, they don't come close to oly lifters. But as far as speed someone still has yet to challenge that for any sport other than sprinting, they are undoubtedly the fastest, after than football players, on average.

So two things here: fastest on average, and fastest. Some football players may be faster than the fastest bobsledders, but I doubt it.

Vag: they don't use a hopping start. They are required to keep the starting foot on the ground. They can lean into it as much as they want. I estimate this would take off 0.3s ish not 0.5s. My hopping start takes 0.5s off my 40yd not 60m. Ill have to time myself though to estimate a better estimate.

29
Pics, Videos, & Links / Re: Bobsled training and 60m times
« on: November 14, 2013, 09:37:27 am »
no that's not at all a logical sequential thought to the information I posted nor does it contradict anything I've said thus far.

30
Pics, Videos, & Links / Re: Bobsled training and 60m times
« on: November 13, 2013, 03:10:56 pm »
True. Fair enough.

I tend to equate athletes with sport and I don't really consider sprinting a sport even though it is because it's individual
 But it is anyway so yea

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