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Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion / Re: Bench Press
« on: March 06, 2011, 11:28:25 pm »
well obviously you are a big proponent of shoulder pressing
Na was not referring particularly to what Defranco has written(although used to follow him big time so maybe this is where it came from), more on the lines of what James Smith has said on the matter. But a lot of his reasons are because of the potential damage the shoulders take in football. Ill read around some more, although I don't particularly like christian thibadeau and havent read much glenn pendlay. I do know Wendler is a fan of over head pressing, so obvsously IMO he knows a thing or to about lifting.
what ratio do you include back to chest to shoulders?
Two pretty good posts on the matter by James Smith
"Evan, despite the novel characteristics of the 'how much do you bench' as a measure of the US high school male's virility, presses of all variants are popular world wide amongst the globe's elite in a variety of disciplines.
From the standpoint of dynamic correspondence the supine bench press is far superior to the overhead/military press as there is no sport other than weightlifting and strongman that requires athletes to overcome large loads directly overhead and support them in that position; and in reality, post the early 1970s, weightlifting doesn't even include the strict overhead press in competition.
Alternatively, there are a multitude of disciplines that require the athlete to overcome loads, via arm extension in the plane of the scapula. Granted, the bench press is performed supine; however, it must be in order to yield great muscle tetanus.
Due to the supine position and being braced posteriorly, the bench press is not specific to any athlete other than a powerlifter; however, it is generally specific to a myriad more athletes than the overhead press with respect to the direction in which the resistance must be overcome relative to the torso.
The most specific form of pressing in the plane of the scapula, for a multitude of athletes, is when an athlete in the standing/athletic position is able to explode out ballistically, or slower and more tonically, against a load on a pendulum apparatus. The USSR and former GDR popularized such forms of exercise as illustrations can readily be found in much of the literature published by overseas authors.
I have 'rigged' various contraptions with heavy medicine balls in a sack suspended from the top of a power rack.
Perhaps most important to the comparison of the bench and overhead press, the bench press is measurably more orthopedically sound than the overhead press. The IOC and the IWF were wise enough to eliminate the overhead press from competition over 30 years ago for safety reasons as well as subjectivity in judging. Unfortunate that this decision has not influenced more coaches of other athletes."
"
Thanks Alex. I must note, however, that it was not my idea to post the exchange between Coach B and myself.
Any means presents structural stress. Some, however, present greater stress then others when we scrutinize what our skeleton and musculo-tendonous apparatus was designed to do from a mechanical-structural standpoint.
The shoulder (glenohumeral) joint is designed for mobility, not stability. As it stands, any overhead lifting with heavy loads requires great stability about the shoulder joint, shoulder girdle, trunk, etc. As a result, over lifting is 1. the greatest strengthener of the shoulders, and 2. the highest training risk with respect to compromising the structural integrity of the joint.
The very action of complete shoulder flexion yields impingement via the humeral head being jammed into/against the acromin.
Add to that external rotation and abduction such as the overhead position in the snatch and you place the shoulder in its most compromised position.
Granted, certain skeletons are at less risk then others with respect to overhead lifting due to differently formed acromins.
the fact remains, however, that repeated overhead lifting with heavy loads simply presents a higher structural risk to the joint compared to pressing in the plane of the scapula and is, therfore, not justified in the training of athletes who must not overcome large loads overhead.
Mind you that this will be debated ad nauseam by proponents of overhead lifting. "
Na was not referring particularly to what Defranco has written(although used to follow him big time so maybe this is where it came from), more on the lines of what James Smith has said on the matter. But a lot of his reasons are because of the potential damage the shoulders take in football. Ill read around some more, although I don't particularly like christian thibadeau and havent read much glenn pendlay. I do know Wendler is a fan of over head pressing, so obvsously IMO he knows a thing or to about lifting.
what ratio do you include back to chest to shoulders?
Two pretty good posts on the matter by James Smith
"Evan, despite the novel characteristics of the 'how much do you bench' as a measure of the US high school male's virility, presses of all variants are popular world wide amongst the globe's elite in a variety of disciplines.
From the standpoint of dynamic correspondence the supine bench press is far superior to the overhead/military press as there is no sport other than weightlifting and strongman that requires athletes to overcome large loads directly overhead and support them in that position; and in reality, post the early 1970s, weightlifting doesn't even include the strict overhead press in competition.
Alternatively, there are a multitude of disciplines that require the athlete to overcome loads, via arm extension in the plane of the scapula. Granted, the bench press is performed supine; however, it must be in order to yield great muscle tetanus.
Due to the supine position and being braced posteriorly, the bench press is not specific to any athlete other than a powerlifter; however, it is generally specific to a myriad more athletes than the overhead press with respect to the direction in which the resistance must be overcome relative to the torso.
The most specific form of pressing in the plane of the scapula, for a multitude of athletes, is when an athlete in the standing/athletic position is able to explode out ballistically, or slower and more tonically, against a load on a pendulum apparatus. The USSR and former GDR popularized such forms of exercise as illustrations can readily be found in much of the literature published by overseas authors.
I have 'rigged' various contraptions with heavy medicine balls in a sack suspended from the top of a power rack.
Perhaps most important to the comparison of the bench and overhead press, the bench press is measurably more orthopedically sound than the overhead press. The IOC and the IWF were wise enough to eliminate the overhead press from competition over 30 years ago for safety reasons as well as subjectivity in judging. Unfortunate that this decision has not influenced more coaches of other athletes."
"
Thanks Alex. I must note, however, that it was not my idea to post the exchange between Coach B and myself.
Any means presents structural stress. Some, however, present greater stress then others when we scrutinize what our skeleton and musculo-tendonous apparatus was designed to do from a mechanical-structural standpoint.
The shoulder (glenohumeral) joint is designed for mobility, not stability. As it stands, any overhead lifting with heavy loads requires great stability about the shoulder joint, shoulder girdle, trunk, etc. As a result, over lifting is 1. the greatest strengthener of the shoulders, and 2. the highest training risk with respect to compromising the structural integrity of the joint.
The very action of complete shoulder flexion yields impingement via the humeral head being jammed into/against the acromin.
Add to that external rotation and abduction such as the overhead position in the snatch and you place the shoulder in its most compromised position.
Granted, certain skeletons are at less risk then others with respect to overhead lifting due to differently formed acromins.
the fact remains, however, that repeated overhead lifting with heavy loads simply presents a higher structural risk to the joint compared to pressing in the plane of the scapula and is, therfore, not justified in the training of athletes who must not overcome large loads overhead.
Mind you that this will be debated ad nauseam by proponents of overhead lifting. "