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Quote from: D4 on April 04, 2012, 12:20:15 am

Quote from: Harvey M. on April 03, 2012, 11:47:13 pm

Quote from: steven-miller on April 03, 2012, 05:23:55 pm

irrational fear of putting on useful body mass.

That's just it. Fat isn't useful body mass. Is there any way we can increase strength/power/elasticity and remove body fat efficiently?

Remove fat = change your diet

Increase strength/power/elasticity = train

Obviously while doing the former, the latter will slow down, or get weaker, all depending on your current levels of body composition and strength and training history...

You can improve both at the same time, depending on your current levels if you eat right and get your macro ratios on target.

That's what I wanted to hear. Would you recommend doing so or taking the easy option?

Would I recommend doing what?  And whats the easy option..?  Be more clear.

Quote from: D4 on April 03, 2012, 07:31:14 pm

Quote from: steven-miller on April 03, 2012, 07:26:54 pm

Quote from: D4 on April 03, 2012, 06:20:23 pm

Steven, I agree with everything you said but am interested in if you think the exact same thing for single leg jumpers?

In principal it does. It might be that single leg jumpers have different priorities, but they still would want to be really powerful in relation to their bodyweight, right?

Well, if added bodyweight does not bode well for single leg jumping, shouldn't adding more mass than necessary not be a focus for single leg jumpers?  Since power/strength doesn't correlate with jumping high as much as it does compared to double leg jumping?

I mean of course I agree a single leg jumper should try to improve there power/BW ratio as much as possible, but I would think they should try to do so without gaining too much weight, while a double leg jumper can ignore this and gain more weight without worrying about it as long as the weight is muscle.

There is going to be an optimal bodyweight for every individual and jump type. Higher will be worse, lower will be worse as well. The mean optimal bodyweight is going to be lower for single leg jumpers I believe. But you do not want to "minimize" bodyweight as Harvey indirectly suggested (see wording "anorexic"). You want to be around that "optimal" spot, where your body can function properly, where you can train and recover properly and where you are really powerful and strong.

I want to ask you a different but related question though. You said strength/power does not correlate high with single leg jump height. Regardless of whether this is true or not, what do you suggest single leg jumpers to train then? You don't suggest to add leg length, do you? ;-)

I agree on the whole finding your optimal weight idea.

I never said strength/power does not correlate high with single leg jumping lol.  I am a single leg jumper and am working hard to get to 2xBW squat.  I said it does not correlate high AS MUCH as it does for a double leg jump which I believe you will agree with as well.  We all know double leg jumping relies more on power than leverage and the vice versa is true for single leg jumping.

You just seemed like you were a huge advocate of gaining muscle mass to improve power output, so I was wondering if you had any alterations to that idea when it comes to single leg jumping when too much mass/weight can hurt more than in double leg jumping.

However, I took your words wrong and now see that you aren't really saying "gain as much muscle mass/weight as possible because it = more power/strength", but instead you're just simply saying don't be scared to gain some weight/muscle, as long as you don't go past your optimal range.

When I weigh 300 lbs with 25% bodyfat and powersnatch 900 lbs, where do you think that puts my SVJ? Right, probably a lot higher than Harvey's.

VJ height is multi-causally influenced by different things. Explosive strength (ES) and bodyweight (BW) are two important determinants but in isolation they won't be great predictors. Maybe the ratio ES/BW is the most pragmatic number to optimize during VJ training. What that means is that you can either increase ES or decrease BW. Often one will have to increase both just making sure that ES/BW gets higher. And that is all there is to it. There is nothing special about a low BF percentage except that young men, strangely enough, crave to look like the protagonists of Twilight which results in their irrational fear of putting on useful body mass.

Steven, I agree with everything you said but am interested in if you think the exact same thing for single leg jumpers?

You were talking about bodyweight loss and fat loss synonymously idiot.  You can't just use one term as a synonym for the other.  They're completely different.  

I made one example about someone who HAS LESS FAT than I do being able to jump higher than me. Yeah, sure, we can talk about him being more reactively equipped but it's highly likely that he gets up higher because he's relatively strong and WEIGHTS 8 KILOGRAMS LESS THAN ME. Of those 8kg, probably half of them will be fat.

That part I bold/italicized, is another example of your poor arguing abilities.  What does him weighing 8kg less than you have ANYTHING to do with him jumping higher than you, if you already stated he has more relative strength?  

The part I underlined, you never said he has less fat than you dumbass.  You just said he's lighter than you.  How the fuck should I know if he's not 72kg of fatness?  A 25%BF 72kg man will have more fat than a 12% 80kg man.

LOL, of those 8kg, probably half of them will be fat?  WTF DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?!  So if he gained 8kg of bodyweight, it's not possible for him to gain 7kg muscle and 1 kg fat?  If you lost 8kg to match his BW, it's not possible for you to lose 7kg fat and 1kg muscle?

 

So let me ask you this, do you think jumping athletes focus enough on fat reduction? Do you think there should be more emphasis on fat reduction?

I think jumping athletes should focus on fat reduction if they are above 12%.  And if they are at 12% and are already over 2xBW on there full squat, I think they should pursue single digit BF%.  

I think single leg jumpers should pursue single digit BF% well before 2xBW.

Other than that, I think focusing on strength/power is more important, provided that you're not a fatass to begin with.

For the thread's sake, please don't go on about relative power.

You're idiotic reasonings make it hard for people to steer the topic away from what you want.  Like your smolov tip thread where you got sad cause people didnt give tips, but told you to not to do smolov instead.


Learn to intellectually make arguments please.

Another example is when I weigh in before testing at 78kg as opposed to 81kg. I know I'm in for a PR or close to it since I'm only 3kg lighter. I know that could be muscle, fat or water weight, but essentially, the lighter you are, the higher you're going to jump.

At the elite level, having next to no fat is probably one of the best ways to optimise your power output, I'm guessing...

I'm not arguing that the lower your body fat %, the higher you will jump (most of the time).

But none of your examples make any fucking sense. 

"the lighter you are, the higher you're going to jump?"  WTF does that even mean?  I'm lighter than Derrick Rose, so I will jump higher than him?  Fundamentally, it comes down to power to bodyweight ratio...  Jeezus 

And if you did that test, and weighed in 3kg lighter, you probably just lost water weight.  Of course losing water weight will help you jump higher since you're not losing muscle/strength.  But why don't you just go by your theory and diet and keep losing more weight, without regards to strength.  Since, "the lighter you are, the higher you're going to jump".  If those 3kg loss was muscle, you would not jump higher.  It was water weight, which you will easily put back on.

I agree with Vag, in those pictures and videos you definitely do not look anywhere as fat as 20% bodyfat.  You look lean enough, maybe like ~14%ish, and especially since you're a two foot jumper, getting leaner and lighter isn't as important to you.  

I'd say, fuck the cardio if you don't want to do it, keep getting your squat and other weight room numbers up, and keep having your jump sessions/practices 2-4x a week.  It is that fucking simple, but you keep changing things up, asking for advice but not listening and never staying consistent for long enough.  Just do that simple shit.  Get stronger, and JUMP.  Stop changing shit and doing random stuff.

Maybe you can go to a local gym with personal trainers who will give you a body fat test with something reliable like body calipers.  If you aren't 12% or under, and you'd like to be (which can only help as long as you don't go too crazy dieting and trying to get to like 5%), then you can change up your diet.

I just saw your most recent post, 2 weeks of no squat?  WTF are you doing?  Even if you're cutting and trying to lose weight, you're still suppose to weight train and try and keep your strength up, if not continue building more strength while dieting.  WTF?  Squatting will not hinder your fat loss goals.......

The reason I use jumpsole is because i got it dirt cheap.  Further more, lot of study show that, using jumpsole result in pretty much same result compare to regular plyometric with the additional risk of getting injury.

Jumpsoles are much riskier for injury than regular shoes.  Probably also less effective in terms of vert training.

So if jumpsoles are not as effective for your goals, and they are more dangerous, why would you use them JUST BECAUSE you got them cheap...???


If a homeless bum sells me a sandwich for 20 cents, should I eat it because it was 'dirt cheap'?

You're always changing up your stuff and not taking advice from people on this forum....  Constantly asking for advice but doing your own things and changing stuff up.

Just keep getting stronger in the weight room, go out and have jump practice sessions 2-3x a week, and go on a diet.  No one is going to jump high at 20% bodyfat....