So I'm wondering... how much do depth jumps help your standing vertical in relation to your... depth jumps?
I mean say you have a 30" standing vert. You do DJ from a two foot box and get 32" Let's say you do them for a few weeks and now your DJ from two foot boxes get you to a 35" jump.
Will your standing vert have increased by the same amount?
maybe not by the same amount, but yes it should increase. Your DJ improving by 3" implies improvements in maximum strength, explosive strength, and reactive strength. So by that alone, and the high amount of dynamic correspondence towards a counter movement jump, you should definitely see improvements in CMJ.
The drop height can add the extra load to your body which you're utilizing via the strength shortening cycle and such.. so without the box, you would now have to generate that force with a much less powerful stimulus (the counter movement).. but, the DJ should be improving several strength qualities that you will be able to voluntarily express during your CMJ.
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I like to do 5 max effort standing jumps before squatting. Should I switch to DJs?
i'd still warmup with some CMJ's before DJ's.. and you'd still need to spend a few weeks prepping on lower boxes, don't jump right into a 30" box. You should easily be able to handle an 18" box for a few weeks, then try a 24" box.. re-evaluate after a few weeks using the 24" box.
use your CMJ prior to the DJ to set a goal for you to beat when you're DJ'n. A vertical goal (touch height etc) is important.
So, DJ in my opinion (and experience) is a much more intense tool than pretty much all of the reactive work. Incorporating it as prep work or in lower volume should provide some benefit. I've seen studies claiming benefits in a variety of protocols, but not sure if some of those studies showed benefits simply from supplementing them into an existing program full of beneficial reactive work.
Also, He never mentions single leg bounding in the same area as depth jumps, ie a super method.. if it isn't, it has to be creeping close to that spectrum though, single leg bounds are very intense.
I don't think it should be prescribed high volume + high box height in combination with lots of other work. Then I think it would actually be very detrimental & extremely risky.
On another note, i've done sessions with TONS of reactive work. Overdoing it to the max, all kinds of different varieties of things. I don't recall any of that being as intense as 4x10 depth jumps from 30". 40 total DJ's from 30" had my CNS destroyed and next-day ligaments/tendons feeling wrecked. Performing DJ's towards the second half (reps 5-10) of a set required some serious focus; it felt on the level of a max effort single in terms of how I would have to dial in. I havn't experienced that from lower volume protocols such as 3x3, 3x5 etc.
Finally.. My body is afraid of depth jumping until it's actually prepared. I can go do double leg bounds, kangaroo hops, attempt single leg bounds right now with my severe lack of prepardness.. However, if someone told me to go perform some DJ's from 30" i'd have some serious inhibition. I'd actually be afraid to do it. I could do a depth drop from 30" but I wouldn't even try a DJ from 30" right now (without prepping for several weeks). I find that interesting.
Interesting stuff. I guess my question more specifically is what do you think is unique to the depth jump that makes it more than reactive work, what specifically makes it a super method?
well in regards to depth jumps, the ability to overload using the height of the falling body is what makes it unique. In the case of sprinting, some form of overspeed while maintaining mechanics (downhill sprinting or some kind of wind tunnel, who knows heh!) would qualify as a super method because you're using the falling body as an added stimulus. we can increase the height of the box/drop (depth jumps) or decrease the angle (down hill sprinting). I need to see if there are any studies on downhill sprinting, I remember doing searches before but I forget the results. Verk mentions it on several occasions but most of his actual data revolves around DJ's.
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Is there:
1) Something involved in stepping off the box?
nah
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This seems unlikely. If it isn't that then why would the following not be a super method:
Jump up grab the rim with two hands (32 inch jump for me). Hang on rim. Release and upon landing jump back up and grab rim again. Would these rim grabs not be a super method? If not, then why not??
right, that's basically a DJ. the only difference is you can't increase the height of the drop precisely, resting seems more difficult, controling angles isn't as easy (you drop right down), and gathering yourself would probably be more effective if you drop off of a box.. but it's the same concept IMHO.
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2) Something involved with the rest interval between each rep? Maybe? If not then why would repeated 30''+ jumps not be a super method? Ie jump vertical in place 30'' and repeat 10x times.
well it sounds like it would be but, if you can repeatedly jump 10x and hit 30", then a 30" box is probably too small to be effective overload as a super method. In that case you might need a 36" box etc. The fact that someone jump 10x in a row with no rest in between (rebounding vertical jumps) and hit 30" means that it is a submax effort, a "10RM" in a sense. So that athlete would need a higher box to tap into that "protected motor potential".
I mean I guess you can label DJ's from 12" "shock", but, it's not true shock in the sense that it isn't a powerful enough overload stimulus. So 30" is the low end of Verk's recommendation, 42" on the high end. Box height is determined by the performance/strength stats of the athlete.
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3) Something involved in the reversal of force in only the vertical direction? If not, then why wouldn't bounds or hurdle hops qualify as a super method provided the athlete goes 30'' in the air and comes down and rebounds.
Same reason as above. If an athlete can get their COG 30" above ground on DL/SL bounds etc, they already posses the "special strength" to produce and absorb/redirect that force voluntarily. So in order to tap into that extra motor potential, they would need to practice DJ's from higher boxes.
Even with single leg bounds, if you're able to keep bounding and reach some y-height (30" for example), it's a voluntary effort and according to Verk, falls within your "special strength" motor potential, not the "defended motor potential".
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Finally, I tried a few depth jumps. I jumped off a 34'' box and landed and touched a ceiling that is 10'1 I was able to get into the ceiling about 2 inches so it's about a 10'3 touch or a 31 inch jump for me. At the time I was wearing a weighted vest + weighted shorts (20+15) so my bodyweight went from 215 to 240 and my standing vertical touch was just barely 10'. Given that I am jumping higher off the box means I must be using some of the landing force in my jump. However, I timed the landing time and it was 0.44 seconds. Does the longer landing time disqualify it from being a depth jump? I took a video of the last two, let me know what you think (I realize if I embark on this it would be best without the additional weight, but I was already wearing it and wanted to get a video)...
looks good. form-wise, it could perhaps use a bit more of a pronounced step off (one leg, arms come together, then other leg as you gather in the air then drive the arms back), and actively dorsiflexing the ankles as you step off, but that's debatable anyway.
I don't think that GCT disqualifies it at all.. you would have to compare it to unweighted jumps and making sure you are rehearsing the correct cues:
"land with a spring and then fly as high as possible" -- SSTM p100
that cue determines the correct execution of the exercise, according to Verk. So, if you practiced DJ's semi-frequently (low volume) and rehearsed the correct cues (and performed them without extra weight), then whatever your GCT is I would imagine it is acceptable (within reason, 1+ second is unacceptable for example). As you improve MaxS, ExS, ReaS, that GCT should either stay the same while producing more force, or perhaps decrease while producing as much or more force.
i'm going to type out a few sections from SSTM on Shock & DJ's.. it will be worth it, some nice information in there and he says it alot better than I can say it
sleep = 9 hours wakeup = 9:00 AM bw = 157 lb morning resting heart rate = forgot to measure soreness = upper back slightly, hamstrings slightly, right calf slightly aches = left shin, left ankle injuries = some toe nails
Food
- 1 x orange juice - 1 x greek yogurt - some chocolates
Session: Morning
left shin bugged me, bleh
warmup: - ~30 min layups, leg swings, dribbling etc
jumps: - L-SLRVJ: lots of 10'4"'s from the 3-pt line - L-SLRVJ: max of ~10'5" on a long run up - did some practice long runups building more speed.. my 10'5 came on a jump from that where i basically bounced, didn't try to jump as much.. so that's a great sign
distance jumps: - some single leg jumps for distance
single leg bounds (progression): - elementary phase, just getting ~5 strides same leg - bound progression stuff took like 10 minutes before i could bounce twice on the same leg, but then I got a bunch of work in
low intensity reactive work, single leg hops: - just simple low intensity stuff, working on locking leg out and bouncing with forefoot/calf - several variations
paused 45 deg back extension: - BW @ 2 x 15
45 deg back extension iso hold: - BW @ 1 x ~60s
neutral grip dead hang pullups: - BW @ 2 x 8 - really nice - feeling so light/strong on these right now - several of the dead-hangs were probably 5-10 seconds.. just chillin
parallel bar dips: - BW @ 8
Food
- 1 x greek yogurt
Bio: Evening
bw = 157 (nice!)
Food
- dark red kidney beans with two peppers - asparagus + mushrooms + a few bits of potato - grilled chicken breast - 3 small scoops of ice cream
Session: Evening
mobility stuff: - swings - reps/holds, various hip/leg/shoulder positions - just light/relaxed stuff, worked alot on glute/hamstring - when I do these sessions, I need (most often) to get a short run in (~3-4mi) after the mobility stuff
Food
- 1 x grape fruit juice
jumps felt good today, other than my left shin. should have gotten in a short run tonight but didn't. tmw is run + lift.
Read your MSEM article.. Thoughts on using them for other exercises like RDL's?
yo! ya could definitely use it for RDL's.. any big compound movement.
right now i'm using it with barbell curl, barbell overhead press, barbell rdl, barbell squat etc.
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Also instead of multiple heavy singles, can you still use it with doubles? So like 2 reps, rest 45 sec, 2 reps, rest 45 sec, etc...
well, it would go against the protocol. I mean sure you could do it, but, part of MSEM is teaching relaxation, reducing time under tension (in one effort), reducing soreness/cns fatigue etc. You surely could do it with doubles, but it might tax you more; which can be fine but it's still different.
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And with these, I know we should always be training with an INTENT on maximal bar speed, but with MSEM, we should ACTUALLY HAVE fast bar speed yes?
maximal bar speed with good form if your goal is also improving explosive strength. If your goal is simply maximal strength then bar speed can be as slow as you need it to be. So bar speed is just based on what qualities you're trying to improve; in our cases, maximal strength & explosive strength. I would still try to avoid dive bombing lifts though unless that's your proven style etc. Also with lifts like RDL, need to be a bit safer with bar speed. But ya, for us the reversal process (from eccentric-isometric-concentric) is most important.
Hey Andrew, I have a question for you. I know your big into depth jumping. Going through the literature it doesn't seem to be clear and I wanted to get your input on this question. Clearly the literature suggests that:
1) A program involving depth jumping AND practice of the CMJ (running or standing) yields better results than one that only includes practice of CMJ.
This seems to be well supported by the evidence. However...
Do you think that the same is true in so far as:
1) A program that involves practice of CMJ and rebound jumps (eg repeated vertical jumps to a target, repeated horizontal jumps (double leg bounding, etc) 2) The same program + depth jumping. Given that the rest intervals for depth jumps were insignificant (15sec, vs 30,60) does it not seem that depth jumps would provide a lot less advantage to a program that already involves repeated jumps (of course repeated jump spacing is far smaller (1-2 seconds) and you can't depth jump with such intervals unless you have a strange stair setup...
Interested in your thoughts. Personally, I believe depth jumps provide limited help in a program that already involves a multitude of multiple jumps.
hey T0ddday. I think DJ's would still be effective in scenario 2. But it depends on what kind of volume/box heights we're using. If we incorporate DJ's with high volume (30-40 total jumps) from a high box (30-40 inches), CMJ & rebounding jumps/bounds would need to play more of an assistance role and as part of a progressively more intense warmup/build up for max intensity depth jumps. Depth jumps in this case would become the entire focus of the session. This form of incorporating depth jumps would yield the best results IMHO, but it's also the most intense & requires far more preparation/safety precautions.
If we incorporate them at lower volume, say 5-15 (3x3, 3x5 etc) total jumps from moderate to fairly high boxes (12-30"), I think they still would provide some benefit but obviously not as much as the scenario above. Instead they would serve as "prep work" if our athletes are not too experienced with them (low boxes) and a tool for strength gain (higher boxes, 24-30"). We could just inject these into a session for the most part.
The DJ itself just represents another level of intensity, so that's why I think it could still be effective in the scenario you posted. It's a method which Verkhoshansky stated would call to action the strength reserves that are protected from conscious recruitment (special and/or innately defended). By providing the supramaximal stimulus of depth jumping from high boxes, you tap into these reserves. A quote from supermethods (dammit can't copy+paste):
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So, when an athlete lifts a barbell or executes an ordinary vertical jump, the effort is entirely volitional. Everything depends on his concentrated effort and the mobilization of motor potential. If the sportsman conducts a vertical take-off after a depth jump with the aim of flying up as high as possible or runs down a slight incline at maximum speed, these conditions force his central nervous and physiological systems to exceed the ordinary boundaries. The creation of such conditions in the training process is the forced intensification of the work regime which becomes a potent training stimulus.
Apparently, under these conditions, the body mobilizes any innate mechanisms designed by nature to be available for these and even more complex, extreme situations.
- reserves employed in reactive movements (15%) - physiological reserves employed under conditions of elevated motor activity (20%) - special reserves mobilized only under conditions of muscle performance of great intensity or long duration (35%) - innately defended reserves mobilized only in extreme, life-threatening situations (30%)
The special and innately defended reserves are distinguished by their mobilization barrier, inhibited by the central nervous system. Overcoming this barrier under normal living conditions is precluded by a protective inhibition, which forces the body to reduce the intensity of work, or cease it.
...
Experiments conducted in my lab demonstrated that the aforementioned "protected" functional reserves of the body are inaccessible regardless of the intensity of the volutional effort without special long-term training.
...
Consequently, it is necessary to create the training conditions that will force the body to mobilize the hidden (concealed) functional reserves and to form central-nervous system mechanisms for their application, ie. to make them accessible for mobilization from a strength-of-will impulse.
So, he says you can tap into the "special reserves" through years of specialized training, which is what bounds and various jumping drills are. But, to tap into these "innately defended" reserves, you need "Super Methods", ie depth jumps or downhill sprints etc.
So, DJ in my opinion (and experience) is a much more intense tool than pretty much all of the reactive work. Incorporating it as prep work or in lower volume should provide some benefit. I've seen studies claiming benefits in a variety of protocols, but not sure if some of those studies showed benefits simply from supplementing them into an existing program full of beneficial reactive work.
Also, He never mentions single leg bounding in the same area as depth jumps, ie a super method.. if it isn't, it has to be creeping close to that spectrum though, single leg bounds are very intense.
I don't think it should be prescribed high volume + high box height in combination with lots of other work. Then I think it would actually be very detrimental & extremely risky.
On another note, i've done sessions with TONS of reactive work. Overdoing it to the max, all kinds of different varieties of things. I don't recall any of that being as intense as 4x10 depth jumps from 30". 40 total DJ's from 30" had my CNS destroyed and next-day ligaments/tendons feeling wrecked. Performing DJ's towards the second half (reps 5-10) of a set required some serious focus; it felt on the level of a max effort single in terms of how I would have to dial in. I havn't experienced that from lower volume protocols such as 3x3, 3x5 etc.
Finally.. My body is afraid of depth jumping until it's actually prepared. I can go do double leg bounds, kangaroo hops, attempt single leg bounds right now with my severe lack of prepardness.. However, if someone told me to go perform some DJ's from 30" i'd have some serious inhibition. I'd actually be afraid to do it. I could do a depth drop from 30" but I wouldn't even try a DJ from 30" right now (without prepping for several weeks). I find that interesting.
To translate what's going on there, it's like this:
Sharp pain = neuron X stimulated, then after a short time neuron Y is fired and it inhibits neuron X, pain disappears Chronic pain = neuron X stimulated, neuron Y is inhibited, neuron X keeps firing => chronic pain that doesn't stop
When you generate some acute pain ("rough" massage) you fire the acute pain pathway, neuron X gets stimulated through that pathway (it was already stimulated through the chronic pathway) but then neuron Y gets stimulated as well, and Y inhibits X. So you can force neuron Y to fire through this acute pain that you're inflicting, in turn making X to be turned off (hopefully).
nice thanks!
I have a neuro-muscular testing book (Clinical Application of Neuromuscular Techniques), which I recall described it similarly. I just skimmed through it, might give some of it a re-read. If I stumble upon that discussion, i'll post it.
Starting with a de-load day though. As I posted earlier, I'm doing a rotating de-load where I cut down on the volume of a workout. I think this will help.
has Ido EVER fought? he has such good movement, nice reflexes, seemingly good strikes.. it's a whole different animal actually fighting, but just curious if he's ever gotten in a cage/ring?
what's his damn last name ffs! it's not portal (Ido's Portal), or is it? HEH!
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