I hear you ghettoranger but unlike you I am still pretty high on Lebron. I hope he gets it together and does justice to his gifts and ends with a legacy worthy of best ever player. However, he may never get there which is sad to me as a fan. I grew up worshipping MJ but I had no idea what he was /really/ like -- and it shattered my world view when i discovered he was nothing like the clean cut image he had sold us all those years ago. I must have seen Come Fly With Me at least a hundred times .. had it on VHS and played it all the time. Lol. I sometimes think i could have done with a better role model but that's not for this conversation lol.
So when ppl talk about LBJ's ego i don't agree. He's pretty humble and down to earth when you compare him to Jordan and somehow Jordan (or Kobe) gets a pass??
I do agree that Lebron shud never have so much influence over personnel and management decisions. I felt even in Miami days he got away with exerting too much influence but it was nothing like what he did with the Cavs on his 2nd tenure there. I was indifferent to the Cavs previously but after that I can't accept a team which allows one player so much abuse of power. And Lebron as GM / coach sucks -- he should have surrounded himself with better staff who would have advised him to make better decisions. That's kinda tragic to me, i really really wanted him to end his career as GOAT.
I'll probably get some flak for playing the race card... But sorry I see no other explanation for the Lebron hate...
Racism isn't always some overt thing where you hate the members of a certain race. A basketball fan can love Tim Duncan and hate Lebron and this can be born out of racism... Allen Iverson is the most racially polarizing basketball star of all time - this doesn't mean his detractors were not fans of any black players...
I think Andrew is on to something with his Serena example, people don't like to see her succeed because of racism and use excuses to tear her down. The idea that Lebron is any less humble than other stars in laughable...
I challenge you all to do this to understand the Lebron hate. Substitute the word humble for the word obedient. I think you see a lot of truth in the Lebron hate now. Lebron isn't obedient and that makes people really mad. He didn't obey his owner, he didn't obey a white agent, or a white coach, he did it his way and this makes people mad.
Jordan and Kobe did it under a white "zen master" who was wise and they obeyed and were rewarded (at least this is the narrative).
The substituting of humble for obedient is pure gold. This is exactly what i've witnessed in person (at work) or in other settings. In my personal experience, these things are mostly said by whites, but also by "non-blacks" (latino, asian etc). There are people who know exactly what they are doing when they say these things. I think these are usually the ones who put these narratives out in the media/sports world to begin with. Then there's most everyone else who hear these narratives, slurp them up, and perpetuate them.
I've said before on many occasions; I absolutely hate the fact that the fans & team owners think they own the players. I really respected Lebron for leaving Cleveland.. and after what he had to put up with from those former-fans who turned so badly on him, and the the Cavs owner, I was shocked to see him end up going back to Cleveland. But that's damn admirable that he'd go back to try and win them a championship after all that Cleveland's "fans" put him through. They turned their backs on him so quick when he announced he was leaving; "oooh but it was how he announced it, that's why I hate him". Give me a break. Then they open their arms for him when he decides to come back? It's easy to cheer for him when you feel like he's "yours".
I think this is so clear in the criticism that Lebron exerts too much power over personnel decisions. Never mind that Kobe ran Shaq out of town and embarrassed and clowned Smush Parker and his new supporting cast - the idea that Lebron makes decisions as the GM really pisses people off?
I find this ridiculous. First of he isn't the GM. You all realize that right? If he has bad ideas and the owner and the general manager do what he says then THEY are bad at their jobs! If I call Obama on the line and suggest we bomb Canada and he listens to me - I am not that bad politician, he is the bad politician.
Second... Is he bad? Let's see the GM team of him Pat Riley and D wade all converged and set up a team to go to four straight finals and win two. That's damn impressive.
During those four years Cleveland was absolutely terrible despite a number one pick and an angry letter from a petulant idiot owner who sounded like a spurned slave owner that he would win a title before Lebron.... Not very humble...
But you know what is humble? Not taking the racist attacks by Daniel Gilbert personally and returning to shitty ass Cleveland to play for an owner who disrespected you because you realize winning a title is something you want to do for the people of the city and you can move on from the past. Think Jordan would play for Krause again??? Hah.
Since his return to Cleveland they have made back to back finals. Sure they didn't win the first time and probably won't win this... But they are going up against a warriors juggernaut. Sometimes you peak when someone really good peaks. Second isn't so bad... I mean the Jazz of 97,98 were one of the great NBA teams. Jerry Sloan did an excellent job and their management assembled excellent teams, they are not failures because they went against MJ and the Bulls and lost. The warriors are equal to the Bulls. Sure Kobe and Shaq won three in a row... But seriously the Nets, Pacers and 76ers? Then they lost to the Pistons who LBJ beat single handedly. Basketball has up and down times. The 90s were amazing. The early aughts were terrible. Teams are really good right now. The Thunder have made the finals once and never won. They are light years better than teams like the 2004 pistons and nets and pacers... Timing is everything...
such a great post

One thing that I really like about this thread is how; in other settings (youtube, facebook, x-forum, in person) normally these things are said about Lebron and they pretty much go un-checked. It's great to see all of the points that have been brought up to defend Lebron; mostly his character and achievements. As for the debate on whether or not he should have improved his free throws, footwork, jumper, post up game, left hand etc, more by now; that's still up in the air. But, to simply say he hasn't improved or won more championships because of his ego, character, not practicing hard enough, etc; I think those have been shot down fairly well.
There's an ongoing character/achievement assassination of Lebron, that seemed to begin with him leaving Cleveland. I hope people who shoot down his character/achievements so easily, without a strong argument, realize at some point that they've just been sucked into this campaign or that they need to address some deeply rooted racism that they never knew they had.
And I can't say it enough.. I've witnessed this same exact thing with Serena Williams and it drives me up the wall. It's just much more obvious in the case of Serena. Apparently, that "one moment" where she freaked out on the line judge calling her for a foot fault during a serve, was "the moment". That allowed everyone who wanted to hate her, to openly voice their disgust for her, every time she takes the court. To diminish her accomplishments, every chance they get. To openly voice their frustration that a black female tennis player is dominating in a mostly "white" sport.
Serena would fall under the category of "disobedient". She's vocal, aggressive, powerful, confident, and she's been destroying her opponents for a very long time - even while spending much of her energy in off-the-court endeavors such as fashion etc. If you ever wanted to see people lash out at "the disobedient black", look no further. It's disgraceful.
As you can see I get heated on this topic. Just witnessing it in person, in so many different settings, stays with you.
Finally, just look at what Raptor said in reaction to Draymond's kick.. That's a great example of some of the stuff we're talking about here.. obviously more blatant. If he wasn't as blatant with his remarks, he could have easily disguised it using other excuses/attacks for years to come, ie much more subtle, all over one action which I perceive to be the trigger that allowed him to just let loose his hate. In this day&age, you can't convince me that calling a black person an ape/monkey in an attack, doesn't have deeply rooted hate based on race.
pc!