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really glad to hear about the knees healing up man.. pretty crazy how wrecked your knees were with all that draining going on.. stay healthy.

as for what to do... all i know is you should start out VERY slow. maybe even less than 150.. bodyqweight, 45, and 95 for 3-4 weeks, progress very slow, keep frequency low, and just feel it out.. i wouldnt worry about any goals for now other than figuring out if you can progress slow & squat pain/effusion free.. the last thing you want to do is jump in to 150 & have a severe response, imo.

pC man

You were very right. Slow is the key. I managed to stick with bodyweight to 95 for a few weeks. I even did 135 and 175 over two weeks without incident. I really think it was loaded articulation (those super light front squats) so soon after the super light back squats that caused this latest episode. Got to keep frequency really low for the foreseeable future. Squat as often as an old school American powerlifter instead of a Russian weightlifter.

So I'd been doing well by squatting 3 times every 2 weeks (Monday-Friday-Wednesday) and slowly upping my numbers from bodyweight to bar to 95 to 135 and recently to 175.

A couple days after I squatted 175, however, I messed around with a couple power snatches, power jerks and front squats. I'm talking reall light stuff. 135 and 145 singles with powersnatch, 175 with front squat + jerk.

The next day my knees were achy, but it felt more like quad pain versus actual joint pain. Two days later (today) and I see that a little effusion has crept back into the left knee.

I'm doubling up on my compression wraps to fight it. And I'm trying not to panic. I've spent a month squatting lightly without incident. I'm guessing that this is a transient problem that can be handled with conservative methods (compression instead of draining) and that it's because I simply cannot use my knees as frequently as I used to.

As always, opinions are welcome.

What really helped me IMMEDIATELY turn my squat strength into a higher vertical was jumping againt band resistance.

Upped my squat, both low bar and high bar over a couple of years. Vertical stayed at 23". Jumped with that gimmicky looking Power Jumper and got to 25" that very day. Got as high as 28" over the next few weeks.

I'm sure you could get the same effect from using minibands.

I hate the American style of squatting once per week also. But dammit, I got jumper's knee in both knees (but heavy in my left knee) and gave in.

I'm doing 5/3/1 now. You should look into that. Slow, consistent gains.

A few months ago I read a quote from some Russian or Eastern European coach who claimed that those high frequency/high volume routines weren't meant for regular people. Those routines were meant to separate potential champions from also-rans. Those with the potential -- i.e. superior recovery ability -- to win medals thrived on the stuff. Those without the potential eventually burned out.

Quite honestly I'm surprised that I lasted as long as I did.

Not to say that high frequency/high volume can't produce results. This stuff works so well that I was afraid that anything else would be a waste of time! But it ahs to used with the trainee's capacity in mind. I got greedy and used Smolov repeatedly almost back to back multiple times over two years. Slow and steady with the occasional bout of high frequency/high intensity would probably have kept me from developing this chronic joint inflammation and resulting pain and effusion. More frequent use of back off weeks also makes a lot of sense. So does adjusting training to account for other factors, i.e. cutting back on squats when also jumping or doing the classic lifts.

Right now, I'm using the fairly gentle "Russian" Squat Routine for bench, making great gains doing it thrice per week. But I'm only doing the building volume part and resetting after getting to 6x6 and 5x5. I'm also not doing any lower body work so more recovery can be devoted to bench. When I start squatting again. I'll just do twice per week benching with one light day and squatting (very light at first) on that light day. And I'm interspersing these 3-week building volume cycles with back off weeks right now.

Looks like I really needed to rest from all squatting and jumping for a good long while.

I read a very old book online about knee effusion. The suggested treatment was months -- not just weeks -- of total rest. I finally gave in and stopped all lower body training. Remember I was at the point where walking more than a quarter mile or standing more than fifteen minutes would cause my knees to fill up!

I haven't squatted with a barbell since early December except for a couple overhead squats a few weeks ago. My knees got better almost daily with the rest. Pain cleared up after about a month and effusion stopped refilling and actually went down. My left knee remained just a tiny bit puffy and so I finally drained it one more time a couple weeks ago. Got only 6-7 cc of clear fluid which has not come back.

I can squat down with knees forward without pain, though I get uncomfortable if I remain in that position more than a minute. I have walked for miles without causing effusion. I've even jogged here and there. My knees still get a little tired if I carry a lot of stuff as I did during my own move and a friend's recently. But I am largely pain and effusion free now because I've stopped traumatizing my knees with frequent heavy squatting.

This brings me to my problem. I'm obviously afraid that squat and jump training will never be tolerated well by my banged up knees. I figure I should take a page from the American style of training and limit my squats to once per week when I test them again. Clearly I wasn't giving my knees enough time to recover between heavy loading and use. I am also wondering if I should wait another three months before reintroducing squats.

My stated plan is to wait another three months, then do a linear progression with squats only one day per week, using wraps and starting with 1RM - 150 lbs and adding 10 lbs per session till I am doing triples with my old 1RM four months later.

This is actually an old routine popularized by Ricky Dale Crain. Two sets of five regular followed by two sets of five paused with ~50 lbs less. Halfway through switch to triples. Nice limited volume, half of which is paused squats which are must gentler on the knees. Very low frequency. I also like how it starts with very light weights, the kind I'll be forced to use because my squat will likely be around 60% of my old pre-layoff max (It was after my last layoff of several weeks).

Lance, thanks again! I will take the advice on alternating rep schemes. Did 50-rep leg curls tonight and they did make my knees feel a lot better. Still had to drain them both a bit and they still hurt, but they feel more "solid" after the pump.

This all makes me wonder about trends and "lost" training knowledge. Back before the 80's, powerlifters often did isolation work, did they not? Nowadays, everything's all "Bulgarian" and minimalist specialization, but there seems to be a lot of wisdom in including bodybuilding/isolation work, especially as a trainee ages.

I think we all assume that the main lifts will take care of everything, but that ain't necessarily so. The main lifts can really beat up the joints and connective tissue without developing them, especially as things get heavier.

And also training more often over time may not be for every trainee. Those blessed with unusual resilience and recovery (and aided by drugs) may thrive on it, but a lot of us may be better off cutting the frequency over time.

Thanks very much for responding, Lance! Everything you wrote makes perfect sense.

Looking back, I realize that I'd been spending every squat session going to over 90%. I need to spend more time in the blood pump rep range and build up tissue and resilience.

I really like the idea of the pause squats. The last couple of sessions I did the first couple of warm up sets with controlled descent and a slight paused and noticed immediately that my knees felt better. I would then switch to the usual bounce style after 225 or so. I thought handling the most possible weight was important for progress and that using the SSC was preferable, but I am more than willing to try them out.

very interesting. wonder how much of the effect is acute and how much is really lasting.

are you going to incorporate them into training from now on? if yes, how? or was it a one-and-done thing?

The extremely quick effects tell me it's neural, but there may be some longer lasting benefit to the connective tissue and joint structure itself. I see no reason not to keep these as pre-hab along with high rep leg curls (which Lance recommended for beat up knees).

I want to experiment with progressive movement training, doing this partial work after the volume work with full squats, and working down an inch every month or so while lowering the load. This may carry over to the full movement. At the very least it will get my knees and quads strong so they are no longer a weak link in my full squat.

I built my squat strength low bar style and I think that left a lot of quad/knee development out. Partial work like this may be helping to address an imbalance that is now showing up as I switched to a more quad-dominant style of squatting.