Author Topic: Strength up, Reactive Power up, Vertical Stay... and Improved! (UPDATE)  (Read 17389 times)

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vag

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Re: Strength up, Reactive Power up, Vertical stay... (HD Version)
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2011, 10:54:24 am »
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^^^^^
this.

Jumping form is important BUT i don't really believe there is much room for improvement after the "noob" gains.
He is a fairly strong individual that plays basketball , scooby knows how to jump. It would be great if we could all do a runup/plant/jump like TDUB , but we can't.

And this recent 'jumping form' spam tsunami makes me insist more , fuck form , keep improving your lifts ( normal and explosive ones ) , keep jumping often and all will fall in place.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

Samwell

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Re: Strength up, Reactive Power up, Vertical stay... (HD Version)
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2011, 11:17:25 am »
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i think a primary focus on improving relative strength whilst adding in some light plyometrics and implementing the jump techniques adam linkenaguer suggest is the best way to go seriously you cant say improvement in jump technique wouldnt help

As far as his SVJ is concerned there is certainly some room for improvement that will come with practice. His jump from a run-up is already a well practiced skill for him and I don't believe he will gain much from "working on his form" alone.

his jump from a run-up has been practiced but has it been practiced efficiently and with proper technique "perfect practice makes perfect"
i do agree that improvement  in form alone isn't the answer but i definitely think it could help more then you think.

Fair enough, we do not have to agree on that. But I would like to know which basis it is that you formed that conclusion on.


a running vertical jump is basically taking horizontal force and turning it into vertical force right
now from the looks of the video his run up to the hoop decelerates due to stutter stepping (losing potential force) optimally you wanna be constantly accelerating before you jump and also his last two steps seem a bit long from what i read a penultimate step(basically two close quick steps) is optimally for the last two steps provide more potential force. im not a expert on form or anything but from what i read and learn and implemented into my form its helped a lot but everyone is different.


VAG his improvements on his lifts are key but people alway seem to neglect the actually practising of jumping.
improving vertical jump in no practically order
1. improve lifts (normal and explosive)
2. improve plyometric ability and reactiveness
3. improve jumping technique
4. Improve body composition
5.flexiblity

i think most people when it comes to improving vertical jump should take a holistic approach it seems like most people focus on one aspect and neglect the rest.


steven-miller

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Re: Strength up, Reactive Power up, Vertical stay... (HD Version)
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2011, 12:03:14 pm »
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a running vertical jump is basically taking horizontal force and turning it into vertical force right

I don't think that this is a good or useful estimation of what happens in a running vertical jump. Where do you have that from?

now from the looks of the video his run up to the hoop decelerates due to stutter stepping (losing potential force) optimally you wanna be constantly accelerating before you jump and also his last two steps seem a bit long from what i read a penultimate step(basically two close quick steps) is optimally for the last two steps provide more potential force. im not a expert on form or anything but from what i read and learn and implemented into my form its helped a lot but everyone is different.

Taking your strange statement from above into account I can understand why you would think that. But I can say with some confidence that there will be no improvement in jump height from a quicker run-up for this athlete. The reason being that the quickness of a run-up and its useful utilization in a vertical jump is not merely an issue of jumping form but of the athletic capabilities of the subject. If he is not strong, powerful and reactive enough to handle a quick run-up, he will actually lose jumping height from a quicker approach.

VAG his improvements on his lifts are key but people alway seem to neglect the actually practising of jumping.
improving vertical jump in no practically order
1. improve lifts (normal and explosive)
2. improve plyometric ability and reactiveness
3. improve jumping technique
4. Improve body composition
5.flexiblity

i think most people when it comes to improving vertical jump should take a holistic approach it seems like most people focus on one aspect and neglect the rest.

The problem is that resources are limited and not every point can have priority. There will be things that are more important than others and working on some of the above will actually do nothing at certain points in time. I don't want to sound condescending, but I believe that you will have to make your own experiences with those issues yet and that your opinion is so far based on very little.

vag

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Re: Strength up, Reactive Power up, Vertical stay... (HD Version)
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2011, 01:24:04 pm »
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We are trying to say that each individual has his own limitations , one can only improve so much his max strength , relative strength , jumping efficiency , RFD , FA , GCT etc.
Kelly Bagget says that you will be happy with your vert the day that you can squat 2xbw , at 10% bodyfat , being able to do 20 knee height lateral jumps in 10 seconds.
I agree 1000% , but not everyone is built to reach those abilities.
Someone might be able to increase his squat a lot but not lose fat. Should he , e.g. , freak out about his 15% bodyfat and try to get it to 10% ? or let it be and get his squat from 2*BW to 2.5*BW? Best choice is the latter.
Knowing your weaknesses and trying to improve them is important , but it is more important to see your strong points and keep pushing those that keep improving.
Steven miller's dropstep is the same with his SVJ. That is weird , one would say he is lacking plyometric ability. Should he change his training plan to improve that? In my humble opinion NO WAY , he should keep doing what he does , it works , his squat goes up , his oly lifts go up , his SVJ and dropstep go up , no need to change something. "you don't change a team that is winning".
As for scooby , if his jumping was bad for his strength, then we could consider things differently. But now it's fairly normal , low 300's squat , low 30's jump , nothing too weird. He just needs to push his strength up ( which he can as we know from his powerlifting past ).
Just my 2 cents...
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

Raptor

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Re: Strength up, Reactive Power up, Vertical stay... (HD Version)
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2011, 03:46:45 pm »
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Agreed about his strength. I still think he could jump better technically, not sure how MUCH better but still, he's not at an optimal level even for his structure in my opinion. Multiresponse plyos and practicing jumping in an accelerative approach for a while (say 1 month) with squat at maintenance (or even working to improve on it) and then focusing on strength again is the way to go IMO.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

vag

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Re: Strength up, Reactive Power up, Vertical stay... (HD Version)
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2011, 03:54:11 pm »
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Agreed about his strength. I still think he could jump better technically, not sure how MUCH better but still, he's not at an optimal level even for his structure in my opinion.

word , i don't disagree on that.

Multiresponse plyos and practicing jumping in an accelerative approach for a while (say 1 month) with squat at maintenance (or even working to improve on it) and then focusing on strength again is the way to go IMO.

I disagree about maintenance. He should keep pushing max strength up because it is lacking.
MR plyos and one more ME jumping session per week would be my recommendation.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

Raptor

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Re: Strength up, Reactive Power up, Vertical stay... (HD Version)
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2011, 04:10:42 pm »
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Well yeah, the more "skill" work if that words suits the event. More jumping basically, working on improving form (working on loading and releasing well and not necessarily the length or height of the jumps, so basically submaximal jumping for form).

In my case, I would do 2-leg bounds for length but not jump maximally but instead go with shorter but quicker jumps.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

Samwell

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Re: Strength up, Reactive Power up, Vertical stay... (HD Version)
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2011, 05:26:17 pm »
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a running vertical jump is basically taking horizontal force and turning it into vertical force right

I don't think that this is a good or useful estimation of what happens in a running vertical jump. Where do you have that from?

now from the looks of the video his run up to the hoop decelerates due to stutter stepping (losing potential force) optimally you wanna be constantly accelerating before you jump and also his last two steps seem a bit long from what i read a penultimate step(basically two close quick steps) is optimally for the last two steps provide more potential force. im not a expert on form or anything but from what i read and learn and implemented into my form its helped a lot but everyone is different.

Taking your strange statement from above into account I can understand why you would think that. But I can say with some confidence that there will be no improvement in jump height from a quicker run-up for this athlete. The reason being that the quickness of a run-up and its useful utilization in a vertical jump is not merely an issue of jumping form but of the athletic capabilities of the subject. If he is not strong, powerful and reactive enough to handle a quick run-up, he will actually lose jumping height from a quicker approach.

VAG his improvements on his lifts are key but people alway seem to neglect the actually practising of jumping.
improving vertical jump in no practically order
1. improve lifts (normal and explosive)
2. improve plyometric ability and reactiveness
3. improve jumping technique
4. Improve body composition
5.flexiblity

i think most people when it comes to improving vertical jump should take a holistic approach it seems like most people focus on one aspect and neglect the rest.

The problem is that resources are limited and not every point can have priority. There will be things that are more important than others and working on some of the above will actually do nothing at certain points in time. I don't want to sound condescending, but I believe that you will have to make your own experiences with those issues yet and that your opinion is so far based on very little.

maybe i choose a poor choice of words or my understanding of a running vertical jump is wrong but i always thought that it was taking your horizontal velocity and converting it to vertical velocity.


what i meant by constantly accelerating is that he should be gradually accelerating with each step without any stutter steps of pauses and doing so with his maximum controlled velocity.

i think one should find out what weakness they have  make that the priority and work down from there this is based on my personal experiences i neglected certain aspects of training and my performance decreased.

Samwell

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Re: Strength up, Reactive Power up, Vertical stay... (HD Version)
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2011, 05:58:01 pm »
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Someone might be able to increase his squat a lot but not lose fat. Should he , e.g. , freak out about his 15% bodyfat and try to get it to 10% ? or let it be and get his squat from 2*BW to 2.5*BW? Best choice is the latter.
Knowing your weaknesses and trying to improve them is important , but it is more important to see your strong points and keep pushing those that keep improving.

in a case like that i would look at what gives u the best bang for you buck and increase the squat while at least maintaining the BF% and not letting in get to high.

Quote
Steven miller's dropstep is the same with his SVJ. That is weird , one would say he is lacking plyometric ability. Should he change his training plan to improve that? In my humble opinion NO WAY , he should keep doing what he does , it works , his squat goes up , his oly lifts go up , his SVJ and dropstep go up , no need to change something. "you don't change a team that is winning".
As for scooby , if his jumping was bad for his strength, then we could consider things differently. But now it's fairly normal , low 300's squat , low 30's jump , nothing too weird. He just needs to push his strength up ( which he can as we know from his powerlifting past ).
Just my 2 cents..

who knows what would happen if he did add plyometrics to his workout dude would properly have a crazy high running vertical

steven-miller

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Re: Strength up, Reactive Power up, Vertical stay... (HD Version)
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2011, 06:51:58 pm »
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About my DSVJ - SVJ differential... This has less to do with my reactivity than you guys think. I handle depth jumps from 30" and drops from higher than that just fine. I can alternate bound reasonably well for a double leg jumper also. I do currently perform plyos and did them in the past as well. So that is not the "issue" IMO.
It just happens to be that I got kinda good in SVJs by adding lots of strength and power and utilizing a greater ROM. These improvements however did not transfer to the DSVJ as easily as they would normally do (see kingfish, who has a 3" differential despite a massive SVJ) because there is no way of using that much ROM with my approach technique, so there is far less time for force production and hence the low differential (at peak performance it was ~0.5 - 1" though). Would you compare my SVJ at a smaller ROM with my DSVJ, you would see a larger differential. Also I used to jump 4-5" higher with an approach compared to standstill before beginning to train seriously last year.
Now, eventually I will switch focus to DSVJ, but that is not the time for it. The SVJ is the more basic skill (and a useful one for a volleyball player), so I will increase that first. I see my problems though and I will attack them aggressively when the time comes. I am aiming at a 3" differential at the end and I think that this is quite doable. But first things first. I PR'd my powersnatches and powercleans pretty much every week and have a lot more potential for a higher jump now. Lance and I are just trying to make that ability transmute to a higher jump right now. Should that get accomplished, you will see higher DSVJs from me in the future as well.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 07:51:59 pm by steven-miller »

adarqui

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Re: Strength up, Reactive Power up, Vertical stay... (HD Version)
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2011, 07:41:30 pm »
+2
bottom line, when scoob jumps alot, his form does improve and he hits some pretty good jumps..

his first issue is, he will jump ~2x/week for 4 weeks, then take 2 months off to do something else like marathon/powerlifting etc.. then come back and jump 1x/week, etc.. he has consistently been inconsistent over the years, that's his main issue..

his second issue is his relative strength.. ~20% body fat is not good for jumping, don't care how strong you are.. but he's not strong enough to overcome such a bodyfat level, so what you see is some pretty mushy jumps.

his third issue is that he does lots of conditioning with his basketball teams.. if you combine that with the fact that his jump frequency is low, you have major problems.. all of that conditioning will cause "unreliable prediction of performance", by that i mean, you won't really know when you'll have a good or bad day.. so with a low frequency of jumping, your chances of having a bad day increase.. you'd have to jump max effort at a low to moderate volume nearly every day to get your body used to producing force fast in the face of all of that conditioning.

his fourth issue is he changes his routine ALOT and doesn't incorporate some key exercises like calve raises etc.. he thinks calve raises are bad because of things he's read, and it's unfortunate.. he needs to squat with an emphasis on overall speed AND speed at traversal, NO GRINDERS.. he easily goes back to grinding out reps, crazy slow squat speed, which is not good for fatigue or his CNS adaptations...

fifth issue is, it's hard for him to fit in reactive work with all of that basketball stuff he does.. he needs to get in some reactive work BEFORE EVERY lifting session.. not DJ's, i'm talking low level rebounds.. he always wants to DJ, but he needs to get better at just simple rebounding exercises... dj's are great but when you have become "so unelastic", you need to work on the basic exercises to get that "initial pop" back before doing stuff like dj's... his depth dropping is fine, but he needs to train more like a spring BEFORE his lifting sessions, which should really wake him up for lifting also, and keep him focused on lifting with speed.

that's what i've been seeing for a while.. these issues are similar to the ones i pointed out way back on TVS..



he just needs a very basic routine, emphasis on lifting with speed, incorporate some low level reactive work before each lifting session, jump max 3-4x/week, and stay completely consistent with it... not 2 months on, 2 months off, etc..

pC






edit: his jumping "form" in terms of runup + plant looks "weak" because he is weak relatively, reactively, doesn't jump enough, and carries too much bodyfat.

fixing any of these issues will yield improvements in jumping and his "technique".. fixing all of them will have him getting up much higher.

steven-miller

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Re: Strength up, Reactive Power up, Vertical stay... (HD Version)
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2011, 08:01:50 pm »
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How do you know that he carries 20% bf?

I agree with his jumping form to get better once he gets more athletic. It rarely happens the other way round (total novices in jumping aside) like some suggested.  

Samwell

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Re: Strength up, Reactive Power up, Vertical stay... (HD Version)
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2011, 09:13:38 pm »
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well i guess now scooby has enough information on here to change his training and improve his vertical
the guy is pretty dedicated when he wants to be all the best mate

adarqui

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Re: Strength up, Reactive Power up, Vertical stay... (HD Version)
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2011, 10:09:54 pm »
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How do you know that he carries 20% bf?

he mentions it on live chat, and mentions he needs to clean up his diet etc.

maybe it's not exactly 20, even tho that's the number he tosses out.. maybe a little lower, regardless, he seems to have issues with his diet/bodyfat levels.

pC



Quote
I agree with his jumping form to get better once he gets more athletic. It rarely happens the other way round (total novices in jumping aside) like some suggested.  

Raptor

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Re: Strength up, Reactive Power up, Vertical stay... (HD Version)
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2011, 01:48:10 am »
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I'm not sure what the hope is for the guy. I mean, he's dedicated but has failed to actually DO stuff that works, even when presented to him, again and again.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps