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Guys, these new revolutionaryily bands help you jump LOWER during the workout. Cuz they act like a spring to pull you down faster. But you have to push harder.

I'd rather just use a barbell.

If there is data showing that XXX protocol with bands produced more than a 5% increase in relative measure of power versus XXX protocol alone.. i'm all ears.

I don't like jump lower devices because they aren't specific. They teach you to jump lower. Most people know I have a fetish for specificity. That's why if I used bands while squatting, they would be attached to the top of the squat rack and would help pull me up in order to teach me to jump faster rather than slower and lower. But I don't have any data to prove myself right

  Bands are far from being "superior" to free weights, if you said bands + free weight is superior to free weight only resistance, you would have a case to argue.  Using a band only set up you have virtually NOTHING at the bottom of the lift.  This even holds true where bands represent more than 50 percent of the total load or so.  Not good considering the in the stretch position is where much of the benefits take place. Double the bands or tighten them so that they are pulling hard at the bottom, then you have too much resistance to be able to complete the rep at the top.

  The accommodating resistance effect is nice, but the eccentric overload (bands pulling down actively faster than gravity) is where bands provide something free weight or even chains cant.  The thing with a jump and comparing it to accommodating resistance is, the body is getting LIGHTER, and youre having to move FASTER the higher in the range of motion you go.  Youre only applying maximal strength at a very small portion in the bottom of the range of motion.  The bands have the opposite effect on the concentric portion, they apply little to no resistance at the bottom portion, then gain tension rapidly as the weight moves towards the top.  During the eccentric portion though, they "trick" the cns into preparing for a load it really wont have to deal with in the stretch position, and you will typically get a more explosive contraction due to that effect.  That is why many have seen the phenomena of a free weight + bands (even though its MORE resistance) move faster on the tendo than that same free weight without the bands.

  The reverse band set up has its uses as well, but any time you take away eccentric tension, you better make damn sure youre getting it somewhere else if jumping or anything power related that involves the ssc is your goal.  A combination of traditional band loading complimented with reverse band set ups can work, as you have both extremes covered.

  Using bands CORRECTLY definitely has unique benefits to it, but bands alone are a long way off of being superior to free weights.  Thats one of the reasons these gimmick devices like the squat flex are doomed for failure from the get go.  No tension in the stretch (bottom of the rom) = fail, regardless of how you set it up.

 

  Bands are far from being "superior" to free weights, if you said bands + free weight is superior to free weight only resistance, you would have a case to argue.  Using a band only set up you have virtually NOTHING at the bottom of the lift.  

Agreed. I don't think anyone is arguing against this.

  The accommodating resistance effect is nice, but the eccentric overload (bands pulling down actively faster than gravity) is where bands provide something free weight or even chains cant.  

Hadn't realized this. I kind of want to try it out now. But of course, you can increase eccentric overload by dropping down faster than is comfortable, or faster than your body can handle in order to lift the weight as powerfully as possible.

 E.g. strength or resistance trained folk will take more time to load the jump during the eccentric than someone on a plyo program or even better on a program with these bands. FOrcing them to jump as fast as possible will load their eccentric phase more..right?

The thing with a jump and comparing it to accommodating resistance is, the body is getting LIGHTER, and youre having to move FASTER the higher in the range of motion you go.  Youre only applying maximal strength at a very small portion in the bottom of the range of motion.  The bands have the opposite effect on the concentric portion, they apply little to no resistance at the bottom portion, then gain tension rapidly as the weight moves towards the top.  During the eccentric portion though, they "trick" the cns into preparing for a load it really wont have to deal with in the stretch position, and you will typically get a more explosive contraction due to that effect.  That is why many have seen the phenomena of a free weight + bands (even though its MORE resistance) move faster on the tendo than that same free weight without the bands.

On the "tendo?" I'm thinking you meant amortization

This is all probably correct, but in the context of a full training program, you hopefully wouldn't screw up your motor patterns too much, and that was my concern. Neural mechanisms can screw you up, or take you to new heights.

Also, you can still apply maximum POWER at the bottom of the ROM.. just try to jump as high as you can..done. DOens't matter what the resistance is. Even if bodyweight. I feel like you'd get a different stimulus in different parts of the ROM. For example

Bottom of Jump: more power due to greater eccentric loading (or whatever the proper term is?) and amortization velocity.
Top of jump - produce more power and more force, not as much velocity - because the bands apply more resistance at the top, ESPECIALLY in conjunction with weights. Concern would be RFD/neural mechanisms, could these bands, without appropriate stimuli from other exercises, teach you to jump with LESS speed?

Thta's really my question, I should have stated it in the first post.

  The reverse band set up has its uses as well, but any time you take away eccentric tension, you better make damn sure youre getting it somewhere else if jumping or anything power related that involves the ssc is your goal.  

Right. But who said we're taking away eccentric tension? What about dropping into the squat faster to increase eccentric velocity as I mentioned above.

  

Bands used as accommodating resistance allow the strength curve to follow closer to the actual strength curve of the lifter... lighter resistance at the bottom of the lift, and gradually increasing to accommodate the strength curve.

DId you mean weaker instead of lighter? THen that makes sense, most people are weaker at the bottom than at the top. What about isokinetic training then do bands mimic isokinetic conditions? It's probbably like asking if Obama is a fascist, there are similarities but stark differences... Just reading this article briefly, isotonic trainig generally results in LESS increase in jump power compared to isokinetic. I.e. regular weight training results in less increase in jum ppower compared to constant velocity training

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1318001/pdf/jathtrain00024-0033.pdf

Bands also reduce the decelerating affect that dead weight has.  If you squat fast you have to slow down or the weight flies off your shoulders.  With bands the increased resistance at the top of the lift allows you to accelerate better even to the end of the lift.

THat's why in the controversial thread "the right and wrong way to squat" I recommended always jumping with the squat to prevent it from decelerating. It's definitely more tiring and on lighter days I'll simply rise on my toes and let the bar rise a little bit above my traps.

@Avishek I'd be interested to see your results of over-speed training with the bands to produce faster contraction speeds.

I don't have this exact band yet, but it would be a lot of fun to try this. I've seen one defranco vid doing this, but I had already thoght of it because it made sense. Again, all gains would be neural. If the force isn't there, what does it matter? I think the future in sprint training/jump trianing lies in RFD. So all neural mechanisms such as this could be highly valuable to elite and already very well stength trained athletes.

WOAH - just thought of something. What if I attached the part that goes on your feet, to the top of a squat rack, and sqatting with like an extra 50 lbs? Or just tried jumping, it would greatly reduce ground contact.... it's only 43 bucks on amazon. I'll get it by the end of the month.


(edit: multi-quote fail)

The bands try to compress you while in the air i don't think that should help that much might just help you stretch to full potential thats it.

 They compress you in the air prior to a svj?  The bands are applying resistance similar to a weight vest, with the addition of kinetic energy on the eccentric. 

@lancests: what was that website you told me where i could buy cheap bands, i forgot to bookmark it very good bands and cheap it bulk.

thanks

www.westsidebarbell.com


 

Just some thoughts about bands and the power jumper.

I use bands in both a lightened setup with them connected to the top of the power rack, and also for accomodating resistance/increased eccentric with them connected at the bottom.  I use them in conjunction with chains and regular weights. How I use them is depends on what the person needs but in the weight room I tend to use them more in the lightened fashion (i.e. hooked to the top so they assist at the bottom of the lift and that assistance decreases as you come up).

With the power jumper, I have said many times that I am a big fan, but I always perform 1 or 2 sets without it at the end for reasons you mention Avishek. Same goes for weight vest or any type of resisted running or jumping exercises (so sprints as well). I am not sure it would really matter though because I am a big advocate of doing plenty of max effort running and jumping to ensure good form regardless of what you are doing in your formal training sessions.

The reason I like the power jumper so much is that it is great for developing eccentric strength without necessarily putting as much impact on the joints from things like depth jumps and altitude landings. Each time you do a rep the bands force you to work just a little harder to stabilize the eccentric portion of the jump. Like anything the immediate effect won't generally blow you away but over time you definitely see some good improvements in that eccentric strength.

Now I don't work with enough people, nor have I done proper split testing with power jumper groups and non power jumper groups to validate this, so this is just my observations, but using the Myotest you do see some good improvements in CGT on both 1 and 2 leg jumps without the need for traditional plyos from using the power jumper.

Also it is light and portable and you can do a lot of different types of jumps with it, and it is cheap. A bit of light resisted jumping is a tried and proven method for vertical jump improvement. The power jumper is a cheap and effective way to incorporate this. Yes you still need to get your strength up, stay lean blah blah blah, but as far as training tools go, I think this is definitely one of the better ones.

Quote from: LanceSTS on January 02, 2012, 01:57:17 pm

  Avishek, you can never "drop" or "pull" yourself down into the squat as fast as you can do it with the addition of bands.

I know, I said that already.

Quote from: LanceSTS on January 02, 2012, 01:57:17 pm

  You can purposely go down faster, but if you added band tension you would increase the speed regardless, thats why reactive squats with bands are called "overspeed" squats.

Reverse band set up is also overspeed, but in the other direction. ANd because you can add more weight. So in the regular set up, the eccentric part is overspeed, concentric is... underspeed, but overforce..

Quote from: LanceSTS on January 02, 2012, 01:57:17 pm

and any time you use a reverse band set up, youre TAKING AWAY tension at the bottom, regardless of you ATTEMPTING to drop down faster, the bands are pulling upwards. 

That's why you can add more weight, and turn it into an overspeed exercise, or overforce. Furthermore, tension is not the only variable here. Power output is. Tension is simply force. Force and power training is what we are after. So jumping faster with a lighter weight produces more power output, but not necessarily more tension. Both types of training can help depending on the athlete's needs

Quote from: LanceSTS on January 02, 2012, 01:57:17 pm

 And no, I meant "tendo" when I said tendo, you need to look up words before you try and tell me what you think I meant.

Well since you're the boss you can post a link. In fact you should always post links all the time.

Quote from: JackW on January 02, 2012, 08:57:36 pm

Just some thoughts about bands and the power jumper.

I use bands in both a lightened setup with them connected to the top of the power rack, and also for accomodating resistance/increased eccentric with them connected at the bottom.  I use them in conjunction with chains and regular weights. How I use them is depends on what the person needs but in the weight room I tend to use them more in the lightened fashion (i.e. hooked to the top so they assist at the bottom of the lift and that assistance decreases as you come up).

Explain to lance why you use the reverse set up more often? I personally would use that set up more often because I like the neural aspect, it teaches you to jump faster at the top, rather than slower from the regular set up.

So instead of attaching it to your feet, you attach it to the top of the rack right? What aboutt he part that slings around your neck, how do you attach that? I'm thinking of getting one and manipulating it so I can do this.

Im lol'n so hard right now Im crying.  Maybe he puts it under their chin, you know, so they keep their head up better. llmfdsllasloaoo