Author Topic: Sore! - to train or not to train, that's the question!  (Read 8200 times)

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DamienZ

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Sore! - to train or not to train, that's the question!
« on: December 07, 2010, 03:13:35 pm »
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So, I would like to hear some opinions on training with soreness (working out a sore muscle), heavy or light soreness, and if possible get some articles or papers about that topic :highfive:

LBSS

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Re: Sore! - to train or not to train, that's the question!
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2010, 04:08:43 pm »
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So, I would like to hear some opinions on training with soreness (working out a sore muscle), heavy or light soreness, and if possible get some articles or papers about that topic :highfive:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ueMh1x7kFjsC&pg=PA59#v=onepage&q&f=false


Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

LBSS

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Re: Sore! - to train or not to train, that's the question!
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2010, 04:20:25 pm »
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J Strength Cond Res. 2010 Aug;24(8):2042-9.
Acute effects of high-intensity dumbbell exercise after isokinetic eccentric damage: interaction between altered pain perception and fatigue on static and dynamic muscle performance.

Sakamoto A, Maruyama T, Naito H, Sinclair PJ.

Graduate School of Decision Science and Technology, Department of Human System Science, Tokyo Institute of Technology, Tokyo, Japan. s_akihiro@hotmail.com
Abstract

This study aimed to determine whether high-intensity dumbbell exercise involving both concentric and eccentric contractions would provide a temporary alleviation of delayed-onset muscle soreness (DOMS). It also examined the effect of alleviated muscle soreness on dynamic muscle performance using a stretch-shortening cycle (SSC; peak angular acceleration and velocity of the elbow during both lowering and concentric phases) to provide indirect evidence that DOMS contributes to the dynamic performance decrement after eccentric injury. Thirteen untrained adults performed 30 maximal isokinetic eccentric contractions of the elbow flexors to induce eccentric damage. Five sets of arm curls using a dumbbell (equivalent to 70% of isometric maximal voluntary contraction) were then performed until failure on days 1, 2, 3, and 5 of recovery. Muscle soreness significantly decreased after each session of dumbbell exercise (p = 0.001). Isometric strength further decreased immediately after dumbbell exercise, indicating muscle fatigue (p < 0.001). Dynamic performance variables were less affected by fatigue, however, with performance being reduced only for peak lowering velocity (p < 0.001). Other measures of dynamic performance were relatively constant after dumbbell exercise, particularly on days 2 and 3 when soreness was greatest. It was concluded that high-intensity concentric/eccentric dumbbell exercise was able to temporarily alleviate DOMS and that this reduction in soreness served to counter the effect of peripheral muscle fatigue during dynamic activities. Practical applications of this study are that after eccentric damage, alleviation of muscle soreness through an optimal warm-up may be helpful to temporarily recover dynamic muscle performance. Free-weight loading is one suggested technique to temporarily manage DOMS.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

LBSS

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Re: Sore! - to train or not to train, that's the question!
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2010, 04:21:46 pm »
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Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

LBSS

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Re: Sore! - to train or not to train, that's the question!
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2010, 04:25:12 pm »
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J Strength Cond Res. 2009 Jul;23(4):1282-6.
Effect of delayed-onset muscle soreness on elbow flexion strength and rate of velocity development.

Nguyen D, Brown LE, Coburn JW, Judelson DA, Eurich AD, Khamoui AV, Uribe BP.

Human Performance Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology at California State University, Fullerton, California, USA.
Abstract

Eccentric muscle actions cause muscle damage and lead to delayed-onset muscle soreness (DOMS), which may impair performance. The purpose of this study was to examine the effect of DOMS on elbow flexion strength and rate of velocity development (RVD). Nineteen college male subjects performed 6 tests (pre- and posteccentric and every 24 hours for 4 days). In the preeccentric tests, each subject reported his arm pain and then did 5 concentric repetitions of elbow flexion/extension on an isokinetic dynamometer at 240 degrees x s(-1). Each subject then completed 6 sets of 10 eccentric elbow flexion actions at 30 degrees x s(-1) and finished with a posteccentric test with another 5 concentric repetitions at 240 degrees x s(-1). On days 1-4, each subject reported his arm pain and then did 5 more repetitions at 240 degrees x s(-1). Analysis was performed on the values for DOMS, peak torque (PT), and RVD. For DOMS, scores on the posteccentric test (2.34 +/- 2.53), day 1 (3.18 +/- 2.18), day 2 (3.21 +/- 2.91), day 3 (1.81 +/- 1.78), and day 4 (1.02 +/- 1.30) were all significantly (p < 0.05) greater than the preeccentric scores (0.00 +/- 0.00). For PT, the scores on the posteccentric test (22.40 +/- 8.87 ft x lb(-1)) and day 1 (23.88 +/- 9.00 ft x lb(-1)) were both significantly less than on the preeccentric test (29.56 +/- 8.42 ft x lb(-1)). The RVD scores on the posteccentric test (1505.73 +/- 462.12 d x s(-1) x s(-1)), day 1 (1571.55 +/- 475.99 d x s(-1) x s(-1)), and day 2 (1546.99 +/- 494.52 d x s(-1) x s(-1)) were all significantly less than on the preeccentric test (1719.86 +/- 473.18 d x s(-1) x s(-1)). This suggests that muscle damage may cause significant decreases in elbow flexion concentric strength and RVD even as DOMS remains elevated.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

LBSS

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Re: Sore! - to train or not to train, that's the question!
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2010, 04:29:47 pm »
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J Athl Train. 2005 Jul-Sep;40(3):174-80.
Effects of massage on delayed-onset muscle soreness, swelling, and recovery of muscle function.

Zainuddin Z, Newton M, Sacco P, Nosaka K.

Edith Cowan University, Joondalup, Western Australia, Australia.

Comment in:

    * J Athl Train. 2005 Jul-Sep;40(3):186-90.

Abstract

CONTEXT: Delayed-onset muscle soreness (DOMS) describes muscle pain and tenderness that typically develop several hours postexercise and consist of predominantly eccentric muscle actions, especially if the exercise is unfamiliar. Although DOMS is likely a symptom of eccentric-exercise-induced muscle damage, it does not necessarily reflect muscle damage. Some prophylactic or therapeutic modalities may be effective only for alleviating DOMS, whereas others may enhance recovery of muscle function without affecting DOMS.

OBJECTIVE: To test the hypothesis that massage applied after eccentric exercise would effectively alleviate DOMS without affecting muscle function.

DESIGN: We used an arm-to-arm comparison model with 2 independent variables (control and massage) and 6 dependent variables (maximal isometric and isokinetic voluntary strength, range of motion, upper arm circumference, plasma creatine kinase activity, and muscle soreness). A 2-way repeated-measures analysis of variance and paired t tests were used to examine differences in changes of the dependent variable over time (before, immediately and 30 minutes after exercise, and 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 10, and 14 days postexercise) between control and massage conditions.

SETTING: University laboratory.

PATIENTS OR OTHER PARTICIPANTS: Ten healthy subjects (5 men and 5 women) with no history of upper arm injury and no experience in resistance training.

INTERVENTION(S): Subjects performed 10 sets of 6 maximal isokinetic (90 degrees x s(-1)) eccentric actions of the elbow flexors with each arm on a dynamometer, separated by 2 weeks. One arm received 10 minutes of massage 3 hours after eccentric exercise; the contralateral arm received no treatment.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Maximal voluntary isometric and isokinetic elbow flexor strength, range of motion, upper arm circumference, plasma creatine kinase activity, and muscle soreness.

RESULTS: Delayed-onset muscle soreness was significantly less for the massage condition for peak soreness in extending the elbow joint and palpating the brachioradialis muscle (P < .05). Soreness while flexing the elbow joint (P = .07) and palpating the brachialis muscle (P = .06) was also less with massage. Massage treatment had significant effects on plasma creatine kinase activity, with a significantly lower peak value at 4 days postexercise (P < .05), and upper arm circumference, with a significantly smaller increase than the control at 3 and 4 days postexercise (P < .05). However, no significant effects of massage on recovery of muscle strength and ROM were evident.

CONCLUSIONS: Massage was effective in alleviating DOMS by approximately 30% and reducing swelling, but it had no effects on muscle function.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

DamienZ

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Re: Sore! - to train or not to train, that's the question!
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2010, 05:09:00 pm »
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thx so far LBSS!!! I'm going to read that chapter of that book later!
Those studies are interesting, have to read them one more time...

adarqui

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Re: Sore! - to train or not to train, that's the question!
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2010, 05:52:25 pm »
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very nice posts LBSS.

as for training with soreness, it depends on the goal of the session etc..

Recovery sessions can help to "mask" the intensity of DOMS or actually improve it:
- Sled dragging (great for alleviating soreness)
- Light active-dynamic work, any type of activity that is submax and greatly improves blood flow (light sport practice, light interval sprints)
- High rep lifting, 15-20 reps, light.. not 20 rep squats

Strength sessions can be performed with DOMS:
- ME & RE sessions can be performed, just make sure a thorough warmup is performed and foam rolling and/or stretching follows the lifts, because fascia can become "tighter" when lifting with soreness

Should not be performed with "considerable soreness":
- Peak performance sessions (max effort MAX V sprints, full runup RVJ's, depth jumps/single leg bounds/shock)
- Peak RFD work


When it comes to jumping, in my experience:
- max effort jumping with considerable quad soreness is very dangerous, can really leave you with some knee aches and possibly worse.. NEVER jump with considerable VMO soreness.
- ME jumping with hamstring soreness tends to make me jump lower but the sessions are bearable
- ME jumping with glute soreness is interesting, sometimes I get up even higher when my glutes have a small bit of soreness, but when they are considerably sore, they can actually "pull" very easily
- ME jumping with considerable calf soreness is dangerous, puts too much strain on the achilles
- ME jumping with upper body soreness depends, usually doesn't impact much


When it comes to sprinting, in my experience:
- max effort MAX-V sprinting should be avoided completely if you have: considerable hip flexor (illiopsoas), ham string, or quad soreness.. Hip flexor/hamstring soreness can easily lead to pulls, quad soreness can easily lead to patellar aches & pains due to possibly less optimal firing of vmo.
- max effort short accels (10-20m) should still be avoided if there's considerable soreness in the above muscle groups, but it's much less risky given the lower velocity's obtained.
- glute soreness isn't much of an issue, though speed can decrease, risk of injury to glutes and joints doesn't seem to be that high with glute soreness.

peace man