Adarq.org

Quote from: maxent on June 08, 2016, 04:36:46 am

I hear you ghettoranger but unlike you I am still pretty high on Lebron. I hope he gets it together and does justice to his gifts and ends with a legacy worthy of best ever player. However, he may never get there which is sad to me as a fan. I grew up worshipping MJ but I had no idea what he was /really/ like -- and it shattered my world view when i discovered he was nothing like the clean cut image he had sold us all those years ago. I must have seen Come Fly With Me at least a hundred times .. had it on VHS and played it all the time. Lol. I sometimes think i could have done with a better role model but that's not for this conversation lol.

So when ppl talk about LBJ's ego i don't agree. He's pretty humble and down to earth when you compare him to Jordan and somehow Jordan (or Kobe) gets a pass??

I do agree that Lebron shud never have so much influence over personnel and management decisions. I felt even in Miami days he got away with exerting too much influence but it was nothing like what he did with the Cavs on his 2nd tenure there. I was indifferent to the Cavs previously but after that I can't accept a team which allows one player so much abuse of power. And Lebron as GM / coach sucks -- he should have surrounded himself with better staff who would have advised him to make better decisions. That's kinda tragic to me, i really really wanted him to end his career as GOAT.

I'll probably get some flak for playing the race card...  But sorry I see no other explanation for the Lebron hate...

Racism isn't always some overt thing where you hate the members of a certain race.  A basketball fan can love Tim Duncan and hate Lebron and this can be born out of racism...  Allen Iverson is the most racially polarizing basketball star of all time - this doesn't mean his detractors were not fans of any black players...

I think Andrew is on to something with his Serena example, people don't like to see her succeed because of racism and use excuses to tear her down.  The idea that Lebron is any less humble than other stars in laughable...

I challenge you all to do this to understand the Lebron hate.  Substitute the word humble for the word obedient.   I think you see a lot of truth in the Lebron hate now.   Lebron isn't obedient and that makes people really mad.  He didn't obey his owner, he didn't obey a white agent, or a white coach, he did it his way and this makes people mad. 

Jordan and Kobe did it under a white "zen master" who was wise and they obeyed and were rewarded (at least this is the narrative).

The substituting of humble for obedient is pure gold. This is exactly what i've witnessed in person (at work) or in other settings. In my personal experience, these things are mostly said by whites, but also by "non-blacks" (latino, asian etc). There are people who know exactly what they are doing when they say these things. I think these are usually the ones who put these narratives out in the media/sports world to begin with. Then there's most everyone else who hear these narratives, slurp them up, and perpetuate them.

I've said before on many occasions; I absolutely hate the fact that the fans & team owners think they own the players. I really respected Lebron for leaving Cleveland.. and after what he had to put up with from those former-fans who turned so badly on him, and the the Cavs owner, I was shocked to see him end up going back to Cleveland. But that's damn admirable that he'd go back to try and win them a championship after all that Cleveland's "fans" put him through. They turned their backs on him so quick when he announced he was leaving; "oooh but it was how he announced it, that's why I hate him". Give me a break. Then they open their arms for him when he decides to come back? It's easy to cheer for him when you feel like he's "yours".

I think this is so clear in the criticism that Lebron exerts too much power over personnel decisions.  Never mind that Kobe ran Shaq out of town and embarrassed and clowned Smush Parker and his new supporting cast - the idea that Lebron makes decisions as the GM really pisses people off? 

I find this ridiculous.  First of he isn't the GM.  You all realize that right?  If he has bad ideas and the owner and the general manager do what he says then THEY are bad at their jobs!  If I call Obama on the line and suggest we bomb Canada and he listens to me - I am not that bad politician, he is the bad politician.

Second... Is he bad?  Let's see the GM team of him Pat Riley and D wade all converged and set up a team to go to four straight finals and win two.  That's damn impressive. 

During those four years Cleveland was absolutely terrible despite a number one pick and an angry letter from a petulant idiot owner who sounded like a spurned slave owner that he would win a title before Lebron.... Not very humble...

But you know what is humble?  Not taking the racist attacks by Daniel Gilbert personally and returning to shitty ass Cleveland to play for an owner who disrespected you because you realize winning a title is something you want to do for the people of the city and you can move on from the past.   Think Jordan would play for Krause again??? Hah. 

Since his return to Cleveland they have made back to back finals.  Sure they didn't win the first time and probably won't win this...  But they are going up against a warriors juggernaut.  Sometimes you peak when someone really good peaks.  Second isn't so bad...  I mean the Jazz of 97,98 were one of the great NBA teams.  Jerry Sloan did an excellent job and their management assembled excellent teams, they are not failures because they went against MJ and the Bulls and lost.   The warriors are equal to the Bulls.  Sure Kobe and Shaq won three in a row... But seriously the Nets, Pacers and 76ers?   Then they lost to the Pistons who LBJ beat single handedly.   Basketball has up and down times.  The 90s were amazing.  The early aughts were terrible.  Teams are really good right now.  The Thunder have made the finals once and never won.  They are light years better than teams like the 2004 pistons and nets and pacers... Timing is everything...

such a great post

One thing that I really like about this thread is how; in other settings (youtube, facebook, x-forum, in person) normally these things are said about Lebron and they pretty much go un-checked. It's great to see all of the points that have been brought up to defend Lebron; mostly his character and achievements. As for the debate on whether or not he should have improved his free throws, footwork, jumper, post up game, left hand etc, more by now; that's still up in the air. But, to simply say he hasn't improved or won more championships because of his ego, character, not practicing hard enough, etc; I think those have been shot down fairly well.

There's an ongoing character/achievement assassination of Lebron, that seemed to begin with him leaving Cleveland. I hope people who shoot down his character/achievements so easily, without a strong argument, realize at some point that they've just been sucked into this campaign or that they need to address some deeply rooted racism that they never knew they had.



And I can't say it enough.. I've witnessed this same exact thing with Serena Williams and it drives me up the wall. It's just much more obvious in the case of Serena. Apparently, that "one moment" where she freaked out on the line judge calling her for a foot fault during a serve, was "the moment". That allowed everyone who wanted to hate her, to openly voice their disgust for her, every time she takes the court. To diminish her accomplishments, every chance they get. To openly voice their frustration that a black female tennis player is dominating in a mostly "white" sport.

Serena would fall under the category of "disobedient". She's vocal, aggressive, powerful, confident, and she's been destroying her opponents for a very long time - even while spending much of her energy in off-the-court endeavors such as fashion etc. If you ever wanted to see people lash out at "the disobedient black", look no further. It's disgraceful.

As you can see I get heated on this topic. Just witnessing it in person, in so many different settings, stays with you.



Finally, just look at what Raptor said in reaction to Draymond's kick.. That's a great example of some of the stuff we're talking about here.. obviously more blatant. If he wasn't as blatant with his remarks, he could have easily disguised it using other excuses/attacks for years to come, ie much more subtle, all over one action which I perceive to be the trigger that allowed him to just let loose his hate. In this day&age, you can't convince me that calling a black person an ape/monkey in an attack, doesn't have deeply rooted hate based on race.



pc!

The substituting of humble for obedient is pure gold. This is exactly what i've witnessed in person (at work) or in other settings. In my personal experience, these things are mostly said by whites, but also by "non-blacks" (latino, asian etc). There are people who know exactly what they are doing when they say these things. I think these are usually the ones who put these narratives out in the media/sports world to begin with. Then there's most everyone else who hear these narratives, slurp them up, and perpetuate them.

To be totally fair I don't think it's only non-blacks who perpetuate these narratives.  Sure, people are self-interested so it's pretty rare to find a black person who is overtly racist toward black people - but this kind of subtle pervasive racism is a stain on society, it affects us all regardless of skin color.  I think the people who you refer to as "knowing exactly what they are doing" are rarely black people - but the narratives are repeated most commonly by white people, less commonly by non-black minorities and even less commonly but still substantially by black people.  I think that in the black community a lot of this comes from jealousy from the older generation - the reaction is sort of "Hey I was obedient and didn't think about what was best for me, what the hell do you think you are doing doing things differently than the way they have always been done!"

Additionally, to be fair some of these people perpetuating the narratives are people who have just taken their fandom for another player to far too extreme of a level.  I have met Kobe fans who parrot any negative thing about LBJ just to keep him from challenging Kobe on the historical charts.  I even have a black friend from Chicago who used to repeat all kinds of ridiculous reasons for why LBJ is no good and not loyal like MJ - although now he is cheering in vain for Lebron and against Curry and the Warriors because he doesn't want to see the 73 win season end in a championship so it won't count.  LOL. 

Speaking of the way things have always been done, it's important to reflect on just how far we have come in America as far as sports.  One of the many reasons to love sports is it's ability to tell us so much socioculturally.  It really wasn't that long ago ( ~ 1950 ) that the color-line was just being broken in major american sports.  At that time there were many fans who believed in an actual white physical superiority and some cultural minds thought that blacks challenging this racism would result in sports becoming less popular...  What's fascinating is now the three most popular sports in America have far more black athletes than white and sports are far more popular than ever...  Unfortunately the simple solution (America is no longer racist!) is not really how we arrived here and you need to look no farther than the popularity of Trump and disrespect of Obama to see how clear that is...  Sport has remained popular in a racist country despite the majority of athletes being black because what sport is has changed - sport is no longer about the athlete but about the management, the strategy, the salary cap deals, the trades, etc - all things orchestrated by the white participants in the sport. This is why fantasy sports are so popular.

White people are ok with being fans of sports where the majority of athletes are blacks as long as they are the loyal foot soldiers in the operation - they grumble about them being overpaid (which is RIDICULOUS because some of these same people who say LBJ is overpaid are free-market republicans who should be in full opposition to an artificial max-salary that forces LBJ to be massively underpaid relative to what he is worth in a fair market) but accept them as part of the game.  This is IMO why football is the most popular sport in America - it's black athletes are truly faceless soldiers hidden behind a helmet, with unguaranteed contracts, short careers and a lifetime of brain damage to look forward to, while the decision makers are wealthy whites making strategic deals...  I mean how many football fans have you met who are fans of Bill Belichick?  He doesn't even play football - yet the game is made about how he is a genius rather than the skill of the players. 

This is why football players can have straight up criminal records and basically kill people but Cam Newton get's heat for celebrating when he scores rather than running back to the sideline obediently and Richard Sherman gets called a thug for being emotional about the most important play of his life... Of course Richard Sherman and Cam Newton both have long time girlfriends/wives and children with only them and have never been in legal trouble.. But the same media that loves to blame bad models in athletics won't praise these guys as excellent role models... 

such a great post

One thing that I really like about this thread is how; in other settings (youtube, facebook, x-forum, in person) normally these things are said about Lebron and they pretty much go un-checked. It's great to see all of the points that have been brought up to defend Lebron; mostly his character and achievements. As for the debate on whether or not he should have improved his free throws, footwork, jumper, post up game, left hand etc, more by now; that's still up in the air. But, to simply say he hasn't improved or won more championships because of his ego, character, not practicing hard enough, etc; I think those have been shot down fairly well.

There's an ongoing character/achievement assassination of Lebron, that seemed to begin with him leaving Cleveland. I hope people who shoot down his character/achievements so easily, without a strong argument, realize at some point that they've just been sucked into this campaign or that they need to address some deeply rooted racism that they never knew they had.

And I can't say it enough.. I've witnessed this same exact thing with Serena Williams and it drives me up the wall. It's just much more obvious in the case of Serena. Apparently, that "one moment" where she freaked out on the line judge calling her for a foot fault during a serve, was "the moment". That allowed everyone who wanted to hate her, to openly voice their disgust for her, every time she takes the court. To diminish her accomplishments, every chance they get. To openly voice their frustration that a black female tennis player is dominating in a mostly "white" sport.

Serena would fall under the category of "disobedient". She's vocal, aggressive, powerful, confident, and she's been destroying her opponents for a very long time - even while spending much of her energy in off-the-court endeavors such as fashion etc. If you ever wanted to see people lash out at "the disobedient black", look no further. It's disgraceful.

As you can see I get heated on this topic. Just witnessing it in person, in so many different settings, stays with you.

Finally, just look at what Raptor said in reaction to Draymond's kick.. That's a great example of some of the stuff we're talking about here.. obviously more blatant. If he wasn't as blatant with his remarks, he could have easily disguised it using other excuses/attacks for years to come, ie much more subtle, all over one action which I perceive to be the trigger that allowed him to just let loose his hate. In this day&age, you can't convince me that calling a black person an ape/monkey in an attack, doesn't have deeply rooted hate based on race.

pc!

Really good points.  You probably have an interesting perspective being a white person in that people probably let their guard down and say these racist things a little quicker...  I'm so racially ambiguous that I try to hide in the shadows but I think people are a little more guarded and careful to not reveal themselves to me quite as fast..  In fact I don't have many white friends that are into sports but it's the one I do have who tells me the racist things people tell him about athletes that have really shocked me the most...

It's great that it gets you heated, it should!  Speaking of Raptors hate filled posts - it's perspectives like this that are so dangerous because they lead to a racism and hate that the person feels is justified.  I really hate to talk about my personal life but I find it unavoidable to give LBJ credit for one of the things I respect so much without admitting to my own personal failings...

What's so ironic is that while Lebron is hated for not being obedient (although they use the euphemism that he is not humble or too egotistical) while he is actually fiercely loyal.  His loyalty is on display in so many ways - to his family, to his city (returning to Cleveland after being blasted by the owner), to his friends (hiring them rather than some established agents), and most importantly in my opinion to his woman.  I think a lot of us have grown up with the support of a loyal girl that is down to ride just like he has... But most of us don't still have her...  While my level of athletic/academic/professional success is obvious far less than Lebron and I still went from very little to a lot more in my life and I have to confess that track meets at UNLV, pool parties in Vegas full of previously untouchables (tall light-skinned women really), and the temptation to get the rewards that one feels he deserves was stronger than my ability to be loyal to my ride or die...  I can contrast myself with Lebron, who despite levels of temptation far greater than what I couldn't handle is still loyal to his middle school girlfriend and put a ring on her finger. I can honestly say that while his basketball game is amazing that this is an aspect where I look up to him like as a man - it's taken me a lot longer than him but at my current age (same as him) I can see the value in living life loyal to those who were loyal to you rather than like you for what you did...

This experience is why I don't judge Dwight Howard for coming into the league as this Christian role model and having a bunch of kids out of wedlock with a bunch of women.  It is not easy.  I get it.  And it's really unfair to judge someone for giving in to a level of temptation that you haven't experienced.  It's why I have no patience for Raptor when he talks about how unfair it is that he doesn't have a girlfriend because "if he did he would be so loyal and perfect unlike all these other assholes who take it for granted".   It's like Chris Rock said about 90 year old Strom Thurmond during Clinton's sex scandal in the 1990's - "it's real easy to judge Bill Clinton when your 90 years old and nobody is begging to give you a blowjob". 

That said while I don't feel right judging athletes for their indiscretions - I do 100% feel that we should praise and elevate those who don't.  It makes me really mad that a media who claims to take things like rape culture seriously and care about athletes who are role models never bring this up...  It's like you only can get scorn for messing up.   It kills me that Kobe got a pass for raping someone*** and that some of the targets who get labeled thugs or put down because of trivial things like dancing or emotion or self-determination and free agency (eg Cam Newton, Richard Sherman, LBJ).  I think we are going to see this more and more because what the media really doesn't like is disobedience and intelligence in combination.  Some athletes are disobedient because they don't care about the status quo so they push back against it (eg Randy Moss, Allen Iverson, Ron Artest) - these athletes are hated by the media and the general (ie white) population because of their disobedience but invariably these guys give the media non-racist justification for criticism by getting in fights or having gun charges or something else of the sort...  However, I think these guys still get less scorn than athletes who are both intelligent and disobedient and REALLY scare the defenders of the status quo.   This is where Serena is totally an example and this is where societies racism becomes so clear as they invent ridiculous reasons to hate them.   In Serena's case I have heard that she is hated because she doesn't practice hard enough and spends too much time on fashion?  She only wins like 3 out of 4 grand slams a year in her 30's and you are mad because you think she isn't working on her game enough??  Clearly whatever she is doing is working.   

Glad to see you exposing this, one of the most frustrating barriers still in sports.

***I know Kobe didn't get charged with rape.  I realize that. But he admitted to rape which in today's narrative of "yes means yes" (which I agree with) should have resulted a bit more scorn...  His apology was basically "I realize you feel like I raped you and I didn't get consent but I didn't realize I was raping you so sorry".   I don't want to get into a debate about rape because I feel like there are "lesser" and "greater" levels of the crime of rape (eg locking someone in a dungeon for a year and raping them is definately a lot worse than what Kobe did) but by the current definition that is being taught and should be taught on college campuses Kobes apology was an admission of rape.  I'm ok with him not being punished further, I'm not vindictive and I believe in second chances and don't really believe in prison in general...  The only punishment he should continue to endure is the media never forgetting that in the debate between who is better between him and LBJ that he is way way way behind Lebron is as far as which is a more positive role model outside the game...  LBJ is also the better basketball players, but that's neither here nor there for this debate...

in re: strom thurmond and bill clinton. strom thurmond had a whole set of kids with a black woman all the while he was a full-blown segregationist.

fuck that racist corpse in his worm-riddled eye socket.

One thing which i am not sure has been brought up in the LBJ conversation is Rich Paul and LBJ's inner circle dictating LBJs terms and decisions. According to this theory, Lebron completely entrusted his legacy to these unqualified (uneducated, hanger-on-ers, posse whatever you want to call them), self interested people and they've squandered his peak years in a fools errand. Todday reframed LBJ's decision nobly to go back to a racist owner and a hostile fanbase to get them a ring etc but it was a sacrifice that hasn't panned out (never will?). The alternative was entrusting his legacy to Riley and the superior Miami management who would have given him better chances at success than Dan Brown's whatever makes Lebron happy policy in Clevaland. None of us are privvy to the in-s-and-outs of management but it's not hard to see that Lebron has gotten his way in Cleveland and it hasn't panned out the way he would have liked.

To expand, Rich Paul is the common denominator btw Lebron and Tristan Thompson - who some say is vastly overpaid for what he provides to the Cavs. So Lebron at the behest of RP campaigned for TT which got his mate a better deal but put the Cavs in a compromised position to be maximally competitive. When key game are lost and won by a few pts, this is a significant factor in success and failure. Trading for Love is inexcusable to me though. People justify it as a sure thing, trading a maybe for a sure superstar etc. Now maybe to argue otherwise is racist too but i dont know if race is as important in this conversation when ppl who like basketball tend to be more egalitarian in my experience. I just hated to see a budding young core of Wiggins and Irving with a new exciting coach dismantled because Lebron thought he could do better with Love and Lue. Fuck that though. Is having a yes-man as a coach a good thing? Go back to Cleveland, great, but then gut the team and rebuild carelessly to have your cake and eat it too, hard to respect that. I wud respect Lebron a lot more if he had just worked with the team he inherited. I wud still have traded Dion though but Lebron got that decision wrong too. Maybe management wud have done that anyway but Lebron wanted him. It's hindsight now but Dion always sucked. My 2c.

One thing which i am not sure has been brought up in the LBJ conversation is Rich Paul and LBJ's inner circle dictating LBJs terms and decisions. According to this theory, Lebron completely entrusted his legacy to these unqualified (uneducated, hanger-on-ers, posse whatever you want to call them), self interested people and they've squandered his peak years in a fools errand. Todday reframed LBJ's decision nobly to go back to a racist owner and a hostile fanbase to get them a ring etc but it was a sacrifice that hasn't panned out (never will?). The alternative was entrusting his legacy to Riley and the superior Miami management who would have given him better chances at success than Dan Brown's whatever makes Lebron happy policy in Clevaland. None of us are privvy to the in-s-and-outs of management but it's not hard to see that Lebron has gotten his way in Cleveland and it hasn't panned out the way he would have liked.

To expand, Rich Paul is the common denominator btw Lebron and Tristan Thompson - who some say is vastly overpaid for what he provides to the Cavs. So Lebron at the behest of RP campaigned for TT which got his mate a better deal but put the Cavs in a compromised position to be maximally competitive. When key game are lost and won by a few pts, this is a significant factor in success and failure. Trading for Love is inexcusable to me though. People justify it as a sure thing, trading a maybe for a sure superstar etc. Now maybe to argue otherwise is racist too but i dont know if race is as important in this conversation when ppl who like basketball tend to be more egalitarian in my experience. I just hated to see a budding young core of Wiggins and Irving with a new exciting coach dismantled because Lebron thought he could do better with Love and Lue. Fuck that though. Is having a yes-man as a coach a good thing? Go back to Cleveland, great, but then gut the team and rebuild carelessly to have your cake and eat it too, hard to respect that. I wud respect Lebron a lot more if he had just worked with the team he inherited. I wud still have traded Dion though but Lebron got that decision wrong too. Maybe management wud have done that anyway but Lebron wanted him. It's hindsight now but Dion always sucked. My 2c.

They were trying to buy instant success pure and simple. Back to back finals so far though so they have had the definition of success without the ultimate. Only injuries stopped them winning last year when the Warriors were far more gettable. Also, this year isn't over just yet. Warriors still need to win 2 more.  If you're running a team and you can build for 5-10 or if you feel you're close take the punt on topping up and go for instant success.

And Maxent, seriously, Lebron is 31. You want him to tutor a team of youngsters and wait for the next opportunity to get back to the finals hoping no other team has taken their spot. The only reason he came back to Cleveland was for success and to try and win a title for the city. He didn't come back to build a team that might just be successful after he retires. Why would you respect him less for wanting success and wanting to bring a title for CLE?

To be clear what im saying is if Lebron goes back to Clevand and says eff your GOAT chasing, im going home and i dont care if i win a ring or not but it wud be real nice if we do, and then never did, i would respect that. But to go back, carve the team up in a dumb way and make bad decisions when you don't care bout the team you joined at all, then to lose anyway, why should I respect that? If you're going to run amok and hostile takeover a team, at least do it well and win something lol.

They have won something.  They are back to back eastern conference champions.  I don't understand your argument at all...  I'm not a huge Kevin Love fan myself but you make it sound like the entire world knew a team with LBJ, Irving, Wiggins, and the rest would easily win the NBA finals in its first two years but then Lebron came along and said "no I want Kevin Love" and management was like "dude there is no way we will beat the Warriors w him but fine." 

Assuming they don't come back and win this title... Would they have won one of these with Wiggins in place of Love?  Obviously nobody knows but I don't think that most basketball minds would be confident saying yes.   Had Lebron not came at how many finals would they have gone to from 2015-2025?  You think Vegas would give you the over or under on two trips?  I'm quite sure the smart money is on the under! 

Given that... He has brought them success... And he didn't gut the team.  You can say he did and it's a cool story but it's also just something you made up.

Quote from: undoubtable on June 08, 2016, 02:59:21 pm

Just to play the devils advocate here, sports are usually a highly emotional setting. People identify so much with the teams and players they support that it can bring out the best and also the worst of emotion. I think for this reason I think the dynamics that come into people love/ hating players and teams are a bit more complex.

For example, I was cheering for the Raptors in the Eastern conference final and Kyle Lowry who I've been a huge fan of since he played for Nova. Quick to rage and emotion I was the biggest Lebron basher calling him out for traveling and being a talentless ball of athleticism. Flash forward to the finals and the bet I have outstanding (likely to lose now) and I feel completely different toward Lebron and am totally sympathetic toward him. I see him as totally human with his vulnerabilities instead of this unmovable force my team couldn't get past. This is completely selfish I understand that but I do think that's the reason why sports move us.

We get caught up and like you guys mentioned, think athletes owe it to us to compete and act a certain way. So my point being that when it comes to sports, things aren't as black and white as they may seem because people get so emotionally caught up.

I get that and if you read my post you will see that I list overzealous Kobe and MJ fans as guilty of repeating racist arguments against LBJ out of their zealous fandom rather than any actual feeling about LBJ.   

I don't have a problem that you are a Kyle Lowry fan and want him to get past LBJ.  But I don't think that excuses you from having some responsibility not to perpetuate racist arguments...  Sports are emotional but as athletes and fans we need to "keep it on the court".  When your playing sports - especially football you obviously become heated at your opponent because he is cracking you.  But you keep it between the lines and you are not excused when you punch him in the face in the tunnel after the game.  Same for you as a fan - if while you cheer for Lowry you claim that Lebron is getting too many calls or getting away with traveling... That's fine.  Even if you are wrong.  BUT when you are calling him a monkey or saying he isn't loyal or he a traitor cause he left Cleveland then you are being racist...  EVEN if your only saying these things in the moment and it's a product of your support for Lowry it doesn't matter.  If Kyle Lowry is a decent guy he wouldn't want you as a fan if that's what being a fan does to you.  If being fan gets you so emotional that you start repeating racist arguments then you don't need to be a fan and you are not excused in my book...

In general though I usually don't find guys like you to perpetuate the racist arguments about LBJ - by guy like you I mean people whose argument against LBJ is something like "God LBJ sucks and he gets too many calls, I hope they start calling travel on him and my Raptors can advance finally".   It's the people that are self described "Lebron haters" rather than fans of the Raptors or Warriors or some other opponent of the Cavs that usually are repeating the worst of it...  It's the people from the midwest that you meet in the airport while your watching a game and strike up a conversation with that you realize are just a fan of whoever is opposing Lebron where the light goes off in your head that says "oooooooh your a racist".

Just to clarify T0ddday, I didn't mean that because sports are emotional, racism in sports is acceptable or violence or any of the such. I want to separate my argument to just include fans that are overzealous and will "hate on" a player with the influence of a Lebron. I was just focusing on the difference between "hating on someone" because your are emotionally caught up in the raw emotion of sport from actual blind hatred that racism would be qualified under. My argument was that in regard to Lebron, he probably gets "hated on" a great deal because people naturally have insecurities that are perputated by being a fan. I don't think that is healthy or right, but I do think it is vastly different from racism. I think you'd find a lot of people that "hate on" Lebron would be super excited to see him and take a picture with him in real life.

Have they though? Or was it Lebron? I don't watch much east basketball so take this with a huge grain of salt but my gut feeling is any team out in the east with Lebron is a contender for ECF.  My point isn't that the Cavs would not be mediocre without Love but at least it was an organic team without the Lebron induced changes. A patchwork of a spoilt GOAT candidate's wet dream. Lebron rightly invited much criticism because he dabbled so much off-court matters. On court too really. Could just have been a great player but no he had to be more than that. You think MJ wanted to go trade for Rodman or was he told here we have a new player, deal with it? I dont know.

I really don't understand your point.

First of all you realize Lebron has no actual power.  Management got Kevin Love not Lebron.   Did they consult Lebron or listen to his advice?  Sure seems like it, but if the management chooses to do that that's what they choose to do.  It's on them.  If they think they are not good enough at building the team and Lebron knows best... Then so be it. 

I don't understand this value of the team being "organic."   Like you said the Bulls got Rodman.  One of the great pickups of all time.  They didn't draft Rodman it made the team far less organic but it was a great move.   Does it matter if MJ called management and said "hey look at this Rodman guy, you should go get him" or not?  Along w getting Rodman the Bulls certainly gutted them team to win as soon as possible at all costs... After 1998 they were terrible but they decided three rings from 96-98 were certainly worth it.   

Do you have a problem with the Lakers picking up Gasol?  Kobe basically sulked and complained after he realized how hard it was without Shaq and begged for another star and the Lakers somehow pulled off the most lop sided trade of all time to pick up Gasol for Kobe and it translates into three finals trips and two rings.  Gasol certainly made the team less organic and was part of a win now strategy but it worked. 

The big difference is Bulls management in the 1990s and the Lakers management in 2008 w Jerry West was really good at building a great team in addition to one really great player.  I mean it's not like the Cavs management has any track record of being able to do anything well except get lucky and get number one picks in the draft.  All you have to do is look at the Cavs from 2003-2010 to see this.   They got Lebron.  They lost boozer.  Who else did they surround Lebron with?   Mo Williams?  That was the best pickup the ever got for Lebron!   It's not like the Cavs were some team with excellent management and a track record of building a winning team and then Lebron came and said "we are doing it my way" and they abandoned their excellent plan and went with his terrible plan!

Sure the team they built during these two years doesn't seem like the best built team to win titles. It's still a damn good team, and no I don't think ANY team plus Lebron makes it out the east.  But Lebron has not always had this much influence and he spent almost a decade as young Lebron on the Cavs when he obviously had far less influence over decisions and they were HORRIBLE at putting together a good team.  The 2007 team he led to the finals was probably the worst supporting cast ever to make it to the finals. 

So, the point is that maybe Lebron the GM isn't the best GM in the league.  But he sure seems as good or better than the management the Cavs actually have.  In Miami he certainly had a role in the team building but the competent management of Pat Riley who listened to him to some degree was clearly better at putting a team together and they won titles.   You can't be mad at Lebron for having too much influence putting together a team that isn't quite good enough unless you compare the alternative... From what we know the alternative (Cavs management) is pretty terrible.  A lot of your posts are filled with assumptions that sorry to say I think come from a weird place of anger for Lebron for being disobedient...  Do you know what plans were or exactly what as said?  For all we know Dan Gilbert planned to trade Kyrie Irving and Andrew Wiggins for Carmelo Anthony to make the unstoppable punch of Lebron and Melo... Then Lebron came and said "uhhhh hold on DG... Let's think of an alternative".  If that's the case then Lebron deserves credit rather than scorn.  Of course we don't know what the case is so why don't we stick to giving management credit or blame for the decisions that are ultimately there's and judge Lebron by what he does with the team they put around him?