Author Topic: mile time  (Read 8325 times)

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entropy

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mile time
« on: June 08, 2012, 11:25:16 am »
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What's a good mile time for a basketball player

a. as a best effort kind of thing
b. as something he should be able to do any time
c. something he should do often in his training as GPP
d. if a mile is too short to mean anything, then give an alternative distance and time

just looking for guidelines here, i'm going to google around too and post what I come across here for discussion, checking etc.
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T0ddday

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Re: mile time
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2012, 03:03:55 am »
+1
What's a good mile time for a basketball player

a. as a best effort kind of thing
b. as something he should be able to do any time
c. something he should do often in his training as GPP
d. if a mile is too short to mean anything, then give an alternative distance and time

just looking for guidelines here, i'm going to google around too and post what I come across here for discussion, checking etc.


Between 4 and 10 minutes.
Seriously, not a question that can really be answered.  Basketball players don't need to run miles and milers don't have to play basketball.  Too many variables that go into running a mile for it to be considered a general test of fitness or part of GPP.

entropy

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Re: mile time
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2012, 04:02:51 am »
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But the average player runs 5 miles during a game?
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T0ddday

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Re: mile time
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2012, 10:01:22 pm »
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But the average player runs 5 miles during a game?

Don't know about that statistic but even if it's true, the average basketball player doesn't run 5 miles a game he MOVES five miles a game.  He does that jogging, running, sprinting down a 25 meter court, walking, standing around during free throws, etc.  Because of this the energy systems used are completely different than those used in a mile run, so the comparison isn't useful. 

Intervals would be a more useful measure of fitness for basketball, but still wouldn't be great honestly.  Still something like run 50 meters, 30 second walkback to the line and run 60 meters the other way, repeat 5 times and calculate total running time would be a lot better.

Devink

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Re: mile time
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2012, 01:50:45 am »
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One of the top high school basketball programs in the nation, Findlay Prep Academy sets a standard of:

5:30 for guards
6:00 for wings
6:30 for bigs

T0ddday

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Re: mile time
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2012, 04:15:22 am »
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One of the top high school basketball programs in the nation, Findlay Prep Academy sets a standard of:

5:30 for guards
6:00 for wings
6:30 for bigs


Powerhouse programs do stupid things, but it doesn't mean they should be taken seriously.

Think I've mentioned this before but the basketball team used to come to our indoor track during preseason because some assistant coach had it in his head that everyone needed to run a 6 minute mile.  This is a D1 program that made the sweet 16 that year... Needless to say the only player who never made the standard was the starting point guard.  His back would tighten up and he would have some issues and would break down pretty horribly around 1000 meters.  Long story short, he is now one of only 3 players from that team drafted into the NBA and was known for being one of the fastest players in the D-league last year where he was an all-star.  Don't think that mile run standard means to much to him now. 

LBSS

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Re: mile time
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2012, 08:33:50 am »
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What's a good mile time for a basketball player

a. as a best effort kind of thing
b. as something he should be able to do any time
c. something he should do often in his training as GPP
d. if a mile is too short to mean anything, then give an alternative distance and time

just looking for guidelines here, i'm going to google around too and post what I come across here for discussion, checking etc.


Between 4 and 10 minutes.
Seriously, not a question that can really be answered.  Basketball players don't need to run miles and milers don't have to play basketball.  Too many variables that go into running a mile for it to be considered a general test of fitness or part of GPP.


THAT IS CORRECT.

to put it another way, the answer to a.-c. is either "it depends" or "why do you care?"

the answer to d. is, "the length of a game of basketball."
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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entropy

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Re: mile time
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2012, 06:27:40 am »
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Don't that statistic but even if it's true, the average basketball player doesn't run 5 miles a game he MOVES five miles a game.  He does that jogging, running, sprinting down a 25 meter court, walking, standing around during free throws, etc.  Because of this the energy systems used are completely different than those used in a mile run, so the comparison isn't useful. 

OK, the argument goes something like this - With a good aerobic base an athlete running up and down the court is in the effortless aerobic zone, not from sustaining an anaerobic  state which exhausts and fatigues and kills performance. This means when the player needs to apply high intensity (eg, sprinting or jumping etc) he's not doing so from an overly fatigued state from the usual up and down. Being fatigued would stop him being able to run as fast, or jump as high when chasing down the ball.

I've heard studies reference that basketball is a mainly aerobic activity. Yes of course there are anaerobic situations, which you'd expect but the vast majority of the game takes place in the aerobic zone. So that's why it's important for a basketball player to have a good aerobic base which allows him to do most of the running effortlessly and aerobically.

TLDR: A guy who can run aerobically for 20-40 minutes at game pace (not including fast breaks and the like) is fitter than someone who can't and has to go quickly into and stay in an aerobic state during a game.

I agree with you that specialising in running a great mile might not do much for a basketball player. But i'm more interested in finding a good test for aerobic fitness for a basketball player.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 06:38:54 am by entropy »
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entropy

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Re: mile time
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2012, 06:35:06 am »
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Quote
Intervals would be a more useful measure of fitness for basketball, but still wouldn't be great honestly.  Still something like run 50 meters, 30 second walkback to the line and run 60 meters the other way, repeat 5 times and calculate total running time would be a lot better.

Yeah, I came across something similar from  Kelly B - he gives the following drill:

3x the following -
2x30 yard sprints
30 yard jog

then walk 30y and repeat 3-5x.

I am guessing this might take 5-7 minutes, but a game isn't played for such a short duration. it's longer, so this can't be the complete answer. Would expect it better to first work on having aerobic fitness to run a full game first, then add in the intervals to work on the specific higher intensity movements?
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T0ddday

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Re: mile time
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2012, 10:59:01 am »
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TLDR: A guy who can run aerobically for 20-40 minutes at game pace (not including fast breaks and the like) is fitter than someone who can't and has to go quickly into and stay in an aerobic state during a game.

I agree with you that specialising in running a great mile might not do much for a basketball player. But i'm more interested in finding a good test for aerobic fitness for a basketball player.

The simple answer to your question is no.  A couple things you should get:

1) A basketball game is NOT sustained.  The average nba games last about two and half hours.  If an NBA runs on average 5 miles per game, then for the entire course of the game he is averaging 32 minutes per mile.  This includes timeouts, commercials, half time, free throws, out of bounds, substitutions for rest, etc, etc.  While running a basketball game is much more challenging than covering 5 miles at a 32min pace, the point is it's not an easy distribution to simulate with some running drill.  That's why intervals are better but still not great at building/predicting basketball specific fitness.  Consider that when an NBA returns from sustained time off, even if not injured his minutes are limited and ramped up slowly so he can build up his basketball specific fitness base.  Despite NBA players having some of the greatest training there is, there is just not a great substitute for the fitness required to play basketball and virtually all players have to "play there way into shape" to some degree. 


2) Second, you are not understanding the differences and overlaps between energy systems.  Great aerobic shape does not allow you to keep the "OFF" switch on the anerobic energy system.  At the beginning of a middle distance race (ie. 400m, 800m, etc) your body begins by using the quickest energy system possible.  The body doesn't say "Oh I'm running an 800m let me leave this free ATP in the cell and go start using my aerobic capacity".  At the beginning of activity the body will begin to use free ATP, creatine phosphate and other quick energy pathways.  After these are used up the body will start to get energy from aerobic respiration and glycolysis.  If a lot of energy is needed glycolysis will dominate and the body will produce lactate which will cause the athlete to "hit the wall or tighten up".  If a lot of energy is not needed the body will primarily be using aerobic pathways which produce much much more ATP and will last a lot longer.  If you ever sprint the knowledge of these pathways is very important, they are why you run the 400m in the following way:

First 5-7 seconds: 95-100 effort because free energy is burned no matter what
Back stretch and most of turn: 90 percent effort (anything over would put you in glycolysis and cause u to fail)
Last 80-150m: Full effort (might as well go into glycolysis because you are almost done)

Understand that these are not huge differences in effort, but they make a huge difference in a race.  These slight differences in effort are what make a good 400m runner vs a bad one.  For example, I am currently a sub 11 100m runner but a very poor 400m runner.  A training partner I have is a decent 400m runner but a poor 100 m runner (11.6).  He can beat me in the 400m because he can stay aerobic at about 91% effort while I have to run closer to 88%.  It's a small difference. 

But on a repeatable event like 400m around a circular track he wins everytime.  Unfortunately a basketball game isn't repeatable.   You don't know how much to save or know how much you will need or when the lulls and breaks will come. Additionally, during the "easy" parts of the game, being at 80% is probably good enough, and everyone can do this.  The advantage goes to the guy who can jump higher and move faster when it's called upon.  That's demonstrated in this study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18545206



T0ddday

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Re: mile time
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2012, 11:06:44 am »
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Yeah, I came across something similar from  Kelly B - he gives the following drill:

3x the following -
2x30 yard sprints
30 yard jog

then walk 30y and repeat 3-5x.

I am guessing this might take 5-7 minutes, but a game isn't played for such a short duration. it's longer, so this can't be the complete answer. Would expect it better to first work on having aerobic fitness to run a full game first, then add in the intervals to work on the specific higher intensity movements?


Why do you need to find a good test of aerobic fitness for a bball player?  Honestly, the best way to get into basketball shape is to just play basketball.  Even if you could build a basketball specific aerobic base running, you would still play basketball and not be about to recover quickly because you haven't experienced the rigors of pounding involved with the game, so you would have aerobic base but not recovery capacity for basketball.... why not kill two birds with one stone?

I CRINGE doing this but if you REALLY want to simulate the aerobic fitness necessary to play basketball, then yes you could design something of longer duration.  It's a bit ridiculous but something along the lines of:

Sprint 30 meters.  Sprint 30 meters.  Jog 30 meters.  Sprint 30 meters.  Walk 30 meters (limit walk to 20 seconds).  Sprint 30 meters.  Jog 30 meters, Jog 30 meters.  Sprint 30 meters.  Walk 60 meters (recover 1 minute).  Sprint 30 meters, etc.

Basically, you should do the following to achieve fitness.  Take a die a roll it many times:

1: 30 meter sprint
2: 15 meter sprint
3: 30 meter jog.
4: 15 meter jog.
5: 60 second walk.
6: 30 second walk.

That gives you some randomness.  Still a poor approximation for basketball.


entropy

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Re: mile time
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2012, 02:25:41 pm »
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The simple answer to your question is no.  A couple things you should get:

Hey thanks for the detailed reply.

Quote
1) A basketball game is NOT sustained. 

If you look at NBA players within the first 5 minutes of the game, all the starters are sweating heavily. What does that tell us? They are sweating because....... ? It's aerobix.. right? But lets say we're not talking about NBA with it's myriad breakages for the sake of television. Say we're talking about the London olympics where the breaks are more abbreviated in the traditional manner if that helps.

Quote
2) Second, you are not understanding the differences and overlaps between energy systems.  Great aerobic shape does not allow you to keep the "OFF" switch on the anerobic energy system.  At the beginning of a middle distance race (ie. 400m, 800m, etc) your body begins by using the quickest energy system possible.  The body doesn't say "Oh I'm running an 800m let me leave this free ATP in the cell and go start using my aerobic capacity".  At the beginning of activity the body will begin to use free ATP, creatine phosphate and other quick energy pathways.  After these are used up the body will start to get energy from aerobic respiration and glycolysis.  If a lot of energy is needed glycolysis will dominate and the body will produce lactate which will cause the athlete to "hit the wall or tighten up".  If a lot of energy is not needed the body will primarily be using aerobic pathways which produce much much more ATP and will last a lot longer.  If you ever sprint the knowledge of these pathways is very important, they are why you run the 400m in the following way:

Taking your sprinting example, the basketball player is constantly switching between these energy systems, even more violently than the 400m sprinter you described. He has to go from rest to full speed, and everywhere in between during games. So a player who plays a full game better be able to sustain ~1hr of running effortlessly since that's expected of all the athletes on the court. You don't get to slow down since that will cost you games. Yes there are breaks inbetween, but that's balanced out with having to exert full effort so often that it probably helps to stay aerobic 91% rather than 88% (just to use your numbers).

It just seems to me that as a sprinter you have a very strong bias for anaerobic activities, which I understand and respect but this is clouding your judgement that basketball requires a solid aerobic base. I'm willing to bet every decent player at higher levels has a great aerobic base, and if they didn't they'd not be very competitive. It's probably taken for granted that someone who plays D1 like you mentioned earlier, has got the aerobic base already, and over the years of playing basketball has adapted to the aerobic demands of the game. I've read in several places that basketball is a mainly aerobic game, and even though I don't have the studies, i'm betting those who claimed it must have seen them.

As far as your randomised intervals go, i bet they will help someone with a good aerobic base from becoming better conditioned for basketball. Definitely. But if they didn't have a good aerobic base, they'd quickly find themselves running slow and the intervals wouldn't be as useful as running for 25-30 minutes at aerobic effort.

Btw can I ask you to comment on sprinters coming back from a season break, and building up an aerobic base first by running longer distances before they go on to train the specific max effort sprints? I read that's how Charlie Franscis trained his sprinters.


 
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T0ddday

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Re: mile time
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2012, 10:14:26 pm »
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Looks like I'm not gonna convince you that mileage is not only useless for a basketball player, but may even be slightly detrimental... but hopefully you will listen to a bit of evidence that might make you change slightly your opinions on aerobic activity.
You didn't really understand my 400m example, but it's a pretty complicated example and I did a poor job explaining... I will clear up a few things for you.



If you look at NBA players within the first 5 minutes of the game, all the starters are sweating heavily. What does that tell us? They are sweating because....... ? It's aerobix.. right?

No!  In February I saw Galen Rupp break the american 2 mile indoor record in Fayetteville, Arkansas.  Amazing.  The guy ran 8:09.  Not a bead of sweat.  He was cool as cucumbers.  Guess that means long distance running is not aerobic?

Seriously, sweating has absolutely nothing to do with aerobic vs anerobic.  Nothing at all!


Taking your sprinting example, the basketball player is constantly switching between these energy systems, even more violently than the 400m sprinter you described. He has to go from rest to full speed, and everywhere in between during games. So a player who plays a full game better be able to sustain ~1hr of running effortlessly since that's expected of all the athletes on the court. You don't get to slow down since that will cost you games. Yes there are breaks inbetween, but that's balanced out with having to exert full effort so often that it probably helps to stay aerobic 91% rather than 88% (just to use your numbers).


You are making the mistake every basketball coach who doesn't understand how the body works makes.  A very very very small break changes everything!!!  EVERYTHING.  You don't need long commercial breaks to cause basketball to be primarily anerobic.

We have done this drill over and over again in practice. Read closely.  Take those two athletes again.  Athlete A is a quarter miler who runs 47.x, 23.low, 11.high, in the (400,200,100m).  Athlete B is a 60m specialist who runs approximately 53, 22.high, 10.high in the (400,200,100m). 

In the 400m Athlete A wins everytime.  But if instead you make the athletes run a high intensity 300m (say 38 seconds) and then you stop them and have them take a 2 minute break and race the last 100m.  Athlete B KILLS athlete A.   Reduce that break to 1 minute, athlete B still wins.  Even at 30 seconds athlete B will win.  Practically any rest at all and athlete B will still muster the strength to blast out ahead and beat athlete A. 

What this demonstration is shows is that a very short break in intensity changes everything.  Basketball requires high levels acceleration and changes in direction (which the aerobic pathways cannot provide) and provides the necessary periods of low intensity for the anerobic system to recover to the extent necessary for it to provide energy for them.



It just seems to me that as a sprinter you have a very strong bias for anaerobic activities, which I understand and respect but this is clouding your judgement that basketball requires a solid aerobic base. I'm willing to bet every decent player at higher levels has a great aerobic base, and if they didn't they'd not be very competitive. It's probably taken for granted that someone who plays D1 like you mentioned earlier, has got the aerobic base already, and over the years of playing basketball has adapted to the aerobic demands of the game. I've read in several places that basketball is a mainly aerobic game, and even though I don't have the studies, i'm betting those who claimed it must have seen them.


Actually, as a sprinter I have a strong appreciation for middle and long distance running events which are actually aerobic activities unlike basketball.  I also am part of an actual measurable sport where everything can be tested unlike a game like basketball.  I will give you that many D1 basketball players may have some decent milage times but it's likely because poor coaching and the incorrect information that you read has encouraged coaches to force them to do unnecessary aerobic conditioning. 

You've read something in several places so you take for granted that studies have been done which support what you read?  I've actually done the studies!  I got my PhD doing the studies!  The best estimates have basketball at 20% aerobic (and that still doesn't mean the best way to train for that 20% is by doing mileage!)

Read: FOX, E.L. et al. (1993) The Physiological Basis for Exercise and Sport. 5th ed. Madison: Brown & Benchmark


As far as your randomised intervals go, i bet they will help someone with a good aerobic base from becoming better conditioned for basketball. Definitely. But if they didn't have a good aerobic base, they'd quickly find themselves running slow and the intervals wouldn't be as useful as running for 25-30 minutes at aerobic effort.


You are free to think that but completely wrong.  The necessity to acquire an "aerobic base" is one of the most pervasive myths in sport and completely false.  If the do 30 minutes and get this base they will STILL puke the first time they have to run fast.  And they won't be able to run as fast because they got slower acquiring this base. 

Btw can I ask you to comment on sprinters coming back from a season break, and building up an aerobic base first by running longer distances before they go on to train the specific max effort sprints? I read that's how Charlie Franscis trained his sprinters.

Yes it's an old myth that it's necessary to start with mileage.  Charlie was actually one of the first coaches to not do this.  Charlie was a huge proponent of short to long training (which is the dominant method now and is producing world record times) and advocated short to long training, with the addition of large amounts of tempo especially if fat loss is required.