Author Topic: Zatsiorsky & Kraemer: Science and practice of strength training  (Read 7042 times)

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steven-miller

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I am refering to the german translation of the 3rd edition from 2008.

I bought the book quite a while ago since it was often times recommended and the name Zatsiorsky certainly bears some weight. As the name suggests the authors tried to bridge the gap between the science of strength training and its application in practice, however one more time one comes to the conclusion that the gap is far too big to overcome at this point in time. While the scientific portions of the book involve interesting ideas, often times unproven hypothesises are provided as fact. One example would be the role of the Golgi Tendon Organ in stretch-shortening cycle activities, which is, at least to my understanding, not completely agreed on by the scientific community at this point in time.
On the other hand, the practical portions of the book mainly consist of observations of what trainers typically do or believe or have done in the past. While that is certainly not worthless, it is not particularly enlightening regarding the whys of them doing so and it also does not provide any information whether the current practice is actually good. Most practical examples are also taken from the context of elite athletes (for example of the former soviet union) without taking into account the problems that go hand in hand with applying that to novice or intermediate trainees.
The goal of the book is explicitly not to provide a training methodology for any kind of athlete or make concrete perscriptions. But I then have to ask: What IS the purpose of the book? It neither provides a sound scientific discussion of theories nor does it provide good practical advice for coaches or athletes.
It is what it is and not everything in the book is without worth. Knowing what elite athletes have done in the past to get to those performances is certainly interesting, although I doubt that this has many clear implications for a population that is NOT elite. I also do not think that looking at the past is necessarily the best way of determining an optimal training philosophy. That would have been a task for exercise science during the last decades, albeit it has produced only little research of value for even the most basic questions.

What's your opinions on the book? Am I way off here?

Joel Smith

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Re: Zatsiorsky & Kraemer: Science and practice of strength training
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2011, 11:48:08 am »
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I like this book.  Were there any other unsubstantiated theories aside from the golgi tendon one?

As with most books by Ph.d's this book is meant for coaches who already know how to write workout programs.  I teach a strength training class at my college out of this book, and it is great.... kind of a by teacher for teacher type of thing.  The training theory section and organization of training are really great also, and I did learn a few things even after beign in the field for quite a while.

As for practice... there are a couple little addendums for example, the part about semi-squats vs full squats which good examples of how you might want to use the material.  I liked their example of what happens with too many depth landings as well.  Anyways, for the price, I thought it was a good book.

DamienZ

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Re: Zatsiorsky & Kraemer: Science and practice of strength training
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2011, 11:56:58 am »
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didn't zatsiorsky not just observe lots of olympic lifters and then based his stuff upon that? (a bit like joe weider lol)

steven-miller

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Re: Zatsiorsky & Kraemer: Science and practice of strength training
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2011, 04:07:12 pm »
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Thanks Joel and Damien, I appreciate that someone finally commented on the book.

I like this book.  Were there any other unsubstantiated theories aside from the golgi tendon one?

I am sure there are many if you would look into it, I remember several instances that don't quite come to mind right now. But if you want I will look it up again and post examples. But aside from things that are not scientifically proven but stated as fact, there are many things that I just strongly disagree about. For example the 3 year rule that an athlete should not train with barbells until he has at least done 3 years of training without it. No reason at all for that and the authors did not care to make a sound argument for it. Or the idea that a novice in the weightroom needs a "complicated" training program with varying volume and intensity. Those who did some form of linear novice progression know that it works better and produces superior results for the first months of training. I also feel very strongly against the idea that exercises in the weight room are supposed to replicate the mechanics of the competition exercise as closely as possible with disregard to the unique nature of an exercise and the specific implications. The example with the squat and varying torso angles is just ridiculous and I would go as far and say that it shows a complete lack of understanding for the exercise. I also have to scratch my head in disbelieve about the authors criticizing swimming coaches for not making their athletes train swimming movements under load in the weight room with specific machines built for this purpose.
But even aside my personal disagreements, most of the content is just stating what coaches did in the past. Not why it supposedly worked, not why it SHOULD work, nor any other actual argumentation or discussion, just plain observation. Let's just say that this does not really encourage people to look for superior solutions.

As with most books by Ph.d's this book is meant for coaches who already know how to write workout programs.  I teach a strength training class at my college out of this book, and it is great.... kind of a by teacher for teacher type of thing.  The training theory section and organization of training are really great also, and I did learn a few things even after beign in the field for quite a while.

There are some things I liked about those sections as well and I also did learn from it. I don't say it is bad in every regard. I just think that it lacks either argumentation or sound research to back up the theoretical ideas. Again, most is just observations. Damien's somewhat sarcastic point of Zatsiorsky looking at olympic lifters and basing a lot on that is not completely untrue either. A lot of the quoted research is actually from the 70s and with regards to weightlifting. And again, it is only observational most of the time.

As for practice... there are a couple little addendums for example, the part about semi-squats vs full squats which good examples of how you might want to use the material.  I liked their example of what happens with too many depth landings as well.  Anyways, for the price, I thought it was a good book.

Well, it's very inexpensive and as I said, not everything about it is bad. Some interesting anecdotal observations but I still think it lacks in several regards.

LanceSTS

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Re: Zatsiorsky & Kraemer: Science and practice of strength training
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2011, 05:25:55 pm »
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Zatsiorsky, Vladimir M. :

Vladimir M. Zatsiorsky, PhD, is a world-renowned expert in the biomechanics of human motion. He has been a professor in the Department of Kinesiology at The Pennsylvania State University since 1991. He also is the director of the university's biomechanics laboratory.

Prior to coming to North America in 1990, Dr. Zatsiorsky served for 18 years as professor and department chair of the Department of Biomechanics at the Central Institute of Physical Culture in Moscow. For 26 years he served as consultant to the national Olympic teams of the USSR. He also was director of the USSR's All-Union Research Institute of Physical Culture for three years.

In addition to his academic pursuits in the classroom, laboratory, and field, Dr. Zatsiorsky is a prolific writer who has authored or coauthored more than 240 scientific papers and several books on various aspects of biomechanics. In recognition of his achievements, he has received several awards, including the Geoffrey Dyson Award from the International Society of Biomechanics in Sport (the society's highest honor) and the USSR's National Gold Medal for the Best Scientific Research in Sport in 1976 and 1982.

Dr. Zatsiorsky is a member of the American Society of Biomechanics and the International Society of Biomechanics.

He and his wife Rita live in State College, Pennsylvania. They have two children and two grandchildren.




Zatsiorsky is definitely not nearly the advanced scientist that we have available to us today, such as members of the "swolecrew" and swoldiers, but he probably knows a little more about sports training than, maybe 99.9999 % of the s&c population.  


That book and super training are two of the best books ever written on strength training, and most of the successful systems today are heavily influenced by its teachings.  Its not a book for someone wanting to "get into" strength training for the first time, but there is tons of valuable information and studies contained in those pages that are the roots of the best systems today.
Relax.

tychver

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Re: Zatsiorsky & Kraemer: Science and practice of strength training
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2011, 06:24:10 pm »
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Zatsiorsky is definitely not nearly the advanced scientist that we have available to us today, such as members of the "swolecrew" and swoldiers, but he probably knows a little more about sports training than, maybe 99.9999 % of the s&c population.  

Or Mark Rippetoe. *Ducks

steven-miller

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Re: Zatsiorsky & Kraemer: Science and practice of strength training
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2011, 08:13:30 pm »
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I do not mean any discredit to Zatsiorsky's accomplishments at all. I however feel that the book I have read of him and Kraemer lacks a lot of things, first and foremost solid argumentation instead of just observation. I do not doubt that it has influenced many practitioners and that good things have come from it. That does not mean however that the things written in the book itself are particularly applicable or more than mere observation what eastern European countries did in the 70s. The books name suggested otherwise and I had hoped for more than what it delivered.

It might be that I am a terrible reader though.

@tychver: What are your thoughts on the book?

tychver

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Re: Zatsiorsky & Kraemer: Science and practice of strength training
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2011, 11:25:29 pm »
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I do not mean any discredit to Zatsiorsky's accomplishments at all. I however feel that the book I have read of him and Kraemer lacks a lot of things, first and foremost solid argumentation instead of just observation. I do not doubt that it has influenced many practitioners and that good things have come from it. That does not mean however that the things written in the book itself are particularly applicable or more than mere observation what eastern European countries did in the 70s. The books name suggested otherwise and I had hoped for more than what it delivered.

It might be that I am a terrible reader though.

@tychver: What are your thoughts on the book?

Carefully avoided my trolling eh? :P

I don't think the book is as good as it could be. There was a lot of congitive dissonance between the more abstract scientific theory and the observed practical training reigimes without much attempt to reconcile the two but I don't think that was really the goal. The book seemed to be more of an introduction to the science of strength training rather than attempting to be the bible of the subject. However, a lot of the research to reconcile the two either hasn't been done or is infeasable. Mark's made a good attempt at it using deduction and empirical observation in his books. Lon Kilgore and Kyle Pierce are trying. Glenn Pendlay was doing a fair bit before he got really busy with other stuff. His masters thesis is worth a read.

A few other things you might want to read:
Principles and Practice of Reistance Training - similar book by Stone et al
Anything by Hartman, Kilgore, Pierce and any combination of!
Anything by Simon Gandevia on CNS and motor fatigue
Most of the stuff on here: http://weightliftingexchange.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=62
Tim Noakes ideas on fatigue and the "central governor"
Cytokine hypothesis of overtraining (probably bullshit but worth googling)


steven-miller

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Re: Zatsiorsky & Kraemer: Science and practice of strength training
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2011, 07:04:52 am »
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I do not mean any discredit to Zatsiorsky's accomplishments at all. I however feel that the book I have read of him and Kraemer lacks a lot of things, first and foremost solid argumentation instead of just observation. I do not doubt that it has influenced many practitioners and that good things have come from it. That does not mean however that the things written in the book itself are particularly applicable or more than mere observation what eastern European countries did in the 70s. The books name suggested otherwise and I had hoped for more than what it delivered.

It might be that I am a terrible reader though.

@tychver: What are your thoughts on the book?

Carefully avoided my trolling eh? :P

I don't think the book is as good as it could be. There was a lot of congitive dissonance between the more abstract scientific theory and the observed practical training reigimes without much attempt to reconcile the two but I don't think that was really the goal. The book seemed to be more of an introduction to the science of strength training rather than attempting to be the bible of the subject. However, a lot of the research to reconcile the two either hasn't been done or is infeasable. Mark's made a good attempt at it using deduction and empirical observation in his books. Lon Kilgore and Kyle Pierce are trying. Glenn Pendlay was doing a fair bit before he got really busy with other stuff. His masters thesis is worth a read.

A few other things you might want to read:
Principles and Practice of Reistance Training - similar book by Stone et al
Anything by Hartman, Kilgore, Pierce and any combination of!
Anything by Simon Gandevia on CNS and motor fatigue
Most of the stuff on here: http://weightliftingexchange.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=62
Tim Noakes ideas on fatigue and the "central governor"
Cytokine hypothesis of overtraining (probably bullshit but worth googling)



I avoided your trolling because I knew that you would have something substantial to say as well ;-).

That was a nice post and I will read into the stuff you mentioned (new book coming by Kilgore, Hartmann & Lascek btw.). I agree about a lot of the research necessary to be "infeasable". The reasons for this are often not scientific in nature though. It's not that those subjects could not be measured or made objective. It just isn't done, maybe because no one cares or maybe because it is easier to do studies that are totally meaningless due to all the methodological problems but get published anyways because everyone else is doing it, too.