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Author Topic: Kettlebell Swing Science  (Read 11513 times)

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Joel Smith

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Kettlebell Swing Science
« on: July 27, 2012, 03:03:07 pm »
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Hey everyone,

I just finished a great article on the science of Kettlebell swings which you can find below

http://www.just-fly-sports.com/1/post/2012/07/eccentric-overloading-methods-for-jumpers-kettlebell-swings-part-i.html#.UBK9vrRQ6Ag

With studies out there that have shown kettlebell snatches to be 3x as effective as plyometrics and anecdotal experiences of 3" vertical gains in 45 minutes, this is a great topic and a great read.

I would love to hear your comments, questions or experiences with this type of work.  It has added a great new element to my own training this summer.

Joel
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Raptor

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Re: Kettlebell Swing Science
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2012, 04:10:29 pm »
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Excellent article, as usual.

The swing does so many things... it's probably one of the top exercises ever in terms of how many things it does at the same time.

My question would be - how to choose the "best" weight for your kettlebell. Is it a matter of "choose the heaviest KB that allows you to perform the movement correctly" or is it something more than that?

What if I can do them correctly for 5 reps with a 40 kg kettlebell and 20 reps with a 24 kg kettlebell? What if I can use more speed with the 24? And so on.

These are important questions but I think they aren't "essential" to be answered. The fact of the matter is that whether you choose a very heavy or a lighter kettlebell you'll still get a heck of a workout for your hips.

It also helps for hip flexor flexibility in my opinion, since you're basically doing a ton of hip hyperextensions at a pretty high speed so you're basically doing hip flexor dynamic stretching. Helpful if you're in anterior pelvic tilt.

As a side note, I personally found out that keeping the chin tucked down a bit helps you hip hyperextend better in the swings.
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Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

Joel Smith

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Re: Kettlebell Swing Science
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2012, 04:14:08 pm »
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Raptor,

I'll cover the weight and technique a bit more in part II>  As for the weight, Brandon Hetzler who does the force plate research recommends 1/3 of bodyweight for maximal results.  Heavier than that and you are losing velocity.  For snatches the weight has to be very light.... I am tempted to start experimenting with the swing using wrist wraps... seems like it would be a lot better in terms of preventing loss of energy transfer to the hips. 

Joel
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Raptor

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Re: Kettlebell Swing Science
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2012, 04:23:06 pm »
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Yeah I know you said there will be part two, but I had to remind you of that chin down stuff in this comment :P

Interesting... 1/3 huh? Well 1/3 of my bodyweight would be 27 kg (so a 28 kg kettlebell) and I have a 24 kg KB but 1/3 really sounds like an arbitrary number that doesn't take into account the athlete's strength...

Don't tell me the same 1/3 recommendation is the same for a guy with a 1x squat and for a guy with a 3x squat as well.

That's like saying "you should snatch with 0.4x bodyweight". Um... no, not really. You should snatch at your individual strength level and with a weight that gives you the best training effect in regards to YOUR strenght level.

So I'm not really ready to buy the 1/3 recommendation.
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Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

Joel Smith

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Re: Kettlebell Swing Science
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2012, 04:30:58 pm »
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Raptor,

Without trying to put words in Brandon's mouth, I feel that the 1/3 recommendation is due to the swing almost being more of a plyometric/low inertia training modality, rather than a "lift".  Obviously an athlete who is incredibly strong can use more weight, but the book "easy strength" where I found a lot of my original material talks about many athletes who have found great results without heavy bells.  Donnie Thompson, who has the WR in powerlifting in the superheavy and squats well over 1,000lbs "only" uses a 100lb bell for his training.... which is just under 1/3 of his bodyweight I believe. 

Obviously the 1/3 bodyweight bell is a general recommendation, but I would imagine for the majority of trained athletes who squat around 1.5-2.0x bodyweight and SVJ 25-35" it is a solid solution.  Not to mention, even if you are incredibly strong, the swing is all about speed!  Even if you squat 3x bw, you can't turn that strength on quickly enough to reverse the bell faster than someone who squat 2.5x or 2.0x bodyweight.... providing it is a light bell.

An anecdote was given in the book about a guy who was 5'9 and had a 2.5x bw squat... maybe more, who went from grabbing rim to dunking by using a 50lb bell I believe?  The weight doesn't have to be high... of course, stronger people can use a bit more weight... maybe 1/2 maximum I would say, while weaker athletes would probably want to go more around 1/4... but I think the 1/3 range is where most athletes can benefit the most. 

Finally, that weight... 1/3 was the "sweet spot" where most athletes could produce the highest force on the force plate. 

Joel
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Raptor

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Re: Kettlebell Swing Science
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2012, 04:37:00 pm »
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Have you tried walking swings? Like, LR or RL "plant" swings where you take a step forward with say your left leg, swing the bell and as your bell reaches the top of the movement you take your other step (with your right leg in this case).

I think it's the most specific swing exercise for a LR plant in a jump for example. You can also do variations on this (like swinging the bell without taking any steps and while the bell reaches the top you do both steps while there (it will be less tension on your legs though)).

I learned about these variations in the Encyclopedia of Kettlebell lifting by Steve Cotter.
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Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

Raptor

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Re: Kettlebell Swing Science
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2012, 05:01:31 pm »
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By the way - what do you think about replacing badly executed power cleans (I do them using the back instead of the hips - I feel a lot of "lowerback pull" when doing them) with KB swings which are much easier to execute correctly?
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Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

Joel Smith

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Re: Kettlebell Swing Science
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2012, 09:35:27 am »
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Raptor,

The walking things seem like an interesting concept, I'll try them out and get back to you on that. 

I think that KB swings are the ultimate solution for olympic lifting in athletes with contraindications.  If athlete struggle with the Oly lifts, or have an injury that make them difficult to perform, go for KB swings!  KB snatches are great too! 

In Verkhoshansky's programs, particularly those in his special strength manual for coaches, there are three main exercises in his vertical jump programs: Squats, Depth Jumps and Kettlebell Jumps (not swings... but rather jumps with the feet on two blocks and a kettlebell held below, jumping reps).  Anyhow, I can imagine that a simple program of squats, depth jumps and swings would be equally if not more awesome.

Joel
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pelham32

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Re: Kettlebell Swing Science
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2012, 10:13:17 am »
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I've used these before in Christian thibadaues 6 weeks to superhero program. I used around a 75 lb kettlebell plus banded (got that idea from Joe Defranco) I have to say the banded kb swing was my favorite exercise through out the whole program. I also noticed my running jumps were higher and it made my jumping smoother or look more effortlessly so to speak. I agree that the kb swing teaches heavy eccentric loading and having to turning and turn off tension. I would want to start incorporating these again, but what would a good set and rep scheme be like for banded swings?
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Goal

windmill consistently/ touch top of the square consistently



weight= 193
height= 6'3 1/2
highest touch= top of the square, which is 11'4

Raptor

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Re: Kettlebell Swing Science
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2012, 03:21:38 pm »
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I hate banded swings because so many people do them wrong... it teaches them to use so much more arm strength because the tension increases towards the top and the hip snap has already happened somewhere at the bottom so they try to use the shoulders/shrug etc using the arms more.
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Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

Nightfly

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Re: Kettlebell Swing Science
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2012, 04:59:42 pm »
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Great article. I like kb swings a lot. I think i'm gonna buy myself one soon.
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Joel Smith

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Re: Kettlebell Swing Science
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2012, 12:02:16 am »
+1
Best rep range for the banded swings would be under 10 reps.  They are shown being done horrendously incorrectly on many pages.  You can do them well, but you need to really work hard on "hike passing" the bell between your legs.  You should feel the bell tickle your ball hairs, it needs to be that close!  Well, not really, but I thought it was a funny analogy.  Many people make the mistake of taking the bell between their knees on the swings, but this f@#ks the exercise all up.

I'll have part II up soon where I talk about how to do the swing with more material on incorporating it in a workout program... but simply.. you can do swings every day, they aren't all that taxing... just awesome!

Vlad, let me know how the KB training helps you in your upcoming dunk contests!

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Raptor

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Re: Kettlebell Swing Science
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2012, 03:55:28 am »
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I know^^^

I completely agree.
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Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

pelham32

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Re: Kettlebell Swing Science
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2012, 11:09:33 pm »
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For those who don't have access to kettlebells, Ross Enamait on Ross training has a good video tutorial of how to make a homemade kettlebell he uses for swings. Hes on video swinging I think up to 175 lbs....  Great article Joel, I just reread it. Part 2 coming soon?
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Goal

windmill consistently/ touch top of the square consistently



weight= 193
height= 6'3 1/2
highest touch= top of the square, which is 11'4

Joel Smith

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Re: Kettlebell Swing Science
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2012, 09:13:01 am »
+1
I need to check out that home-made kettlebell article.  The second part of the article is up!

http://www.just-fly-sports.com/1/post/2012/08/maximizing-the-performance-of-the-kettlebell-swing.html#.UCJjY038u8A

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