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His knees are moving? forward, they should't do that. Form is terrible.

MrBobcabob Acum 7 (de) luni

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I think the same applies in terms of deadlifts vs squats.

That's why some people have such good deadlift numbers and such poor squat numbers, especially if they high bar squat - you can't cheat using the lowerback as much in the squat as you can in the deadlift.

So obviously people with great lowerback strength but weak leg strength will deadlift much more than they can squat. Think Mutombo on this forum.

That's a great point.  I know I am a little late to the party but I don't know why Steven thinks you can't use your back to a large degree in squats and deadlifts.  Mutumbo's problem is actually common in track athletes (I think he has a sprinting background) who develop pretty intense isometric back strength but generally don't put their quads through a full range of motion until they get to the weight room.  I trained with a 135lb triple jumper who could easily deadlift 440lbs and powerclean 250lbs but couldn't squat 315 to save his life.   Long legs short torso and strong back and glutes will make an athlete find a way to perform every lift without using his quads. 

That said it's really all about the individual and the individuals athletic background.  Qualifying that you perform the lifts with "correct form" is somewhat silly IMHO because ideally compound strength lifts should be performed with the technique that allows you to lift the most weight safely, not the form that makes you "feel the burn" in your quads.  Lifting with form which doesn't allow you to handle the most weight you can makes an exercise lose it's usefulness as a measuring stick for strength improvement.

For me this involves performing a lot of front squats.  I first started squatting and powercleaning (using my back almost completely) in college as part of poor strength and conditioning program for sprinting,  I have deadlifted 560 at 195 without focusing on the lift and when I perform high-bar pause squats with more than 365 pounds on the bar I often end up turning the lift into a hybrid squat/good morning about halfway up.  My back is strong enough that holding my torso erect on the front squat is never the challenge (my weak quads and hamstrings are). 

Raising my max front squat triple from 275 to 325 over the last 6 months has done more for my quads than backsquatting would have.  Additionally, I am now able to perform pause back squats with more weight with less goodmorninish form.  I've raised my max standing vertical from about 34 to 36.5 inches as well despite gaining about 10lbs.   

Don't know if it's made me faster... Really don't believe weight training has that much carryover past about 50 meters and before 50 meters it's only tenths or hundreds of seconds that can be improved anyway.   

The point is... Maybe I could have made the same gains doing Low-Bar back squat with the form Steven prescribed, ie. trying to keep my torso upright and making my LBBS look more like a vertical movement.... But this would have been extremely difficult and hard to accomplish especially when dealing with fatigue.  Front squats allow an athlete with my characteristics to get to the weight room, throw some weight on the bar, try and lift as much as possible, and get stronger legs which carryover to things like vertical jumping.  That's a huge advantage IMHO. 

I think you read the thread wrong. I never advised the LBBS to be performed with a very vertical back, that was Lance. I think a more horizontal back is what actually makes you get more out of it because of the reasons discussed extensively in this thread. I did not advise to do good-mornings though.

Not exactly what I said, I posted examples of squats, to show examples of squats that train the LEGS more, and that would correlate more to athletic movement, driven from the LEGS.

I can progress in Leg Presses and Barbell Hack Squats faster than Back Squats, does that make them better?

But then again Steven-Miller is a rippetard and thinks his opinion matters because he can squat 450+ pounds.

Quote from: TheSituation on August 14, 2012, 06:58:56 pm

I can progress in Leg Presses and Barbell Hack Squats faster than Back Squats, does that make them better?

But then again Steven-Miller is a rippetard and thinks his opinion matters because he can squat 450+ pounds.

I can leg press 660 lbs. Does that mean my opinion matters too?!

AWESOME!

He's probably going to respond by insulting me. Somehow that will give his opinion more credibility. He thinks his opinion is important because he increased his squat and jump by a certain amount. That's nice. If I increase my leg press by 400 pounds I'm going to jump higher. Does that make it optimal?

This is the same guy who said half squats are useless because he did them for a month and increased his half squat but couldn't jump any higher, completely ignoring that neural adaptations were responsible for his gains and not muscle gains. The irony of this is he kisses Rippetoe's ass when Rippetoe's entire program is based on this concept. You think you actually put enough more muscle mass every 2 days to squat 5-10 more pounds? No, you're just getting used to/getting better at squatting.

You can try and coach this away and enforce the athlete to have their hips rise slower and generate more leg drive... but why not just have an athlete attempt to move a load in a lift where the power has to come from the leg drive... like the front squat?   Part of being a good coach is that while you might have a preference for a lift like the LBBS, you should realize that their are exceptions whose progress will be better served with an exercise in which they can concentrate more solely on load lifted and be ready to prescribe an alternative for such athletes.

I agree that there are exceptions in which another exercise can legitimately be used in place of the preferred one. But an athlete making an easy to correct form error does not qualify as such in my opinion.