Author Topic: Is The Maximal Effort Method Killing Our Athletes?  (Read 16483 times)

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MattA

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Re: Is The Maximal Effort Method Killing Our Athletes?
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2012, 04:20:02 pm »
-3
Yeah ^^^

At least this article increases awareness for proper recovery. I also think that the volume is detimental not necessarily for the protagonistig, big muscles, but because the stabilizers fail during longer set (with many reps) and therefore a whole bunch of stuff starts to happen (muscles start to overload because other muscles are already fatigued, poor form occurs and so on and so forth).

Dude, there is no such word as "protagonistig." Even if you meant "protagonistic", that word is referring to main characters in books or movies and such. Why do you make up words for things when there are already words for them. It's either "prime-movers" or "agonists." Or shit, just say the "big muscles" or "main muscles," you always clutter your posts with made up bullshit words.
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Raptor

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Re: Is The Maximal Effort Method Killing Our Athletes?
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2012, 04:48:36 pm »
+1
Because "protagonist" is a synonime to "agonist". Or maybe it isn't. I'm sorry I wasn't born in an English-speaking country. I should be ashamed of myself. I wonder how well you speak Romanian. Or French. Or German? What's that? Oh...
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

LanceSTS

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Re: Is The Maximal Effort Method Killing Our Athletes?
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2012, 05:12:13 pm »
0
I would be interested to know people's opinions about John Broz' statement, that very high volume protects from injuries because the ever present fatigue hinders the body from using intensities where such injuries are likely to occur.

This is obviously in respect to weight training, not throwing a baseball etc. But that is a perspective that stands in large contrast to the points made in the article.


I think this position, volume as the main predictor of injury, can only be argued for when there is a minimum intensity requirement. To effectively train there certainly is. But regarding the bench press example one could certainly ask whether an injury had occurred, when 395 lbs were used for 5x5. I think it is less likely. So my counter-argument would be that injury risk is best predicted by an interaction of volume x intensity - much more so then one of those alone (which again leads to the author's point of view and the real questions: how much intensity is required to make progress and at which intensity can efficiency be maximized?)

On a side note: Volume as a predictor of injury could also have nothing to do with improper programming, but simple statistics. If there was a fixed injury risk of 0,1% per repetition at a given intensity, then doing more repetitions would increase the likelihood of an injury. But NOT because of fatigue and improper mechanics, but just because there are more opportunities for the incident to occur. The injury risk of 0,1% could still remain the same and injury could even happen when a heavy single is programmed (although less likely). The take-away message is that injury cannot ever be ruled out and not every injury is due to improper programming.


  I dont know if there is much *or any* scientific  backing to what  broz is claiming,  but if he thinks that from years of doing his program his way, then I would think there definitely may  be some merit to the idea.  Even if the reasoning  behind WHY it works is different, eg. lifting a heavy weight more frequently actually makes you  better "practiced" at lifting that weight, hence the less likely form  breakdown, etc. 

 I agree with you on your analysis of the rest of that, though the comment posted was in context of his problem with the max effort method, which would entail only ONE set of 405, and that set would in that context in fact  be less likely to cause injury.


  There is also no real PROOF that working up to one heavy set is actually more draining on the cns than doing something like 5 x 8, only speculation from what Ive seen.  In my personal experience I would say the days when working up to a low(ish) rep max, compared to the days with more volume via "bodybuilding" type schemes are actually LESS cns draining, and those days can potentiate things like sprints, jumps, etc, much more effectively.

 In fact, thats what many program those days via the max effort method for, stimulation, not annihilation of the cns.  The higher rep range work at a lower intensity is programmed as a hypertrophy stimulus primarily, and athletic events need to be spaced further apart from these days, as theyre actually MORE draining.

 In the long run, progression of LOAD over time is king, however you choose to get there remains trivial as there is more than one way to skin a cat.   
Relax.

MattA

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Re: Is The Maximal Effort Method Killing Our Athletes?
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2012, 06:13:31 pm »
-1
Because "protagonist" is a synonime to "agonist". Or maybe it isn't. I'm sorry I wasn't born in an English-speaking country. I should be ashamed of myself. I wonder how well you speak Romanian. Or French. Or German? What's that? Oh...

I understand that you are not from America, so why try to use/make up the most complicated sounding words when you could get the point across with much less complex verbiage. If I was in your country, i wouldn't ask for a "carbonated beverage" i would ask for a "drink" or "soda"... you always make it out to sound like you have some educational background in anatomy/physiology/kinesiology with the way you talk and make up theories and hypotheses, but then you use the word "protagonistig" to talk about prime mover muscles. Why not just use words anyone on the forum can understand and comprehend, prime mover is much more self explanatory and informative than "protagonistig muscles." Think of how Kelly Baggett writes: simple, concise, where anyone can understand his point.

steven-miller

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Re: Is The Maximal Effort Method Killing Our Athletes?
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2012, 06:31:10 pm »
+1
  I dont know if there is much *or any* scientific  backing to what  broz is claiming,  but if he thinks that from years of doing his program his way, then I would think there definitely may  be some merit to the idea.  Even if the reasoning  behind WHY it works is different, eg. lifting a heavy weight more frequently actually makes you  better "practiced" at lifting that weight, hence the less likely form  breakdown, etc. 

I am sure there is no scientific backing to Broz' claims. But I find the reasoning somewhat plausible. The technical execution becoming more staple when doing a movement A LOT certainly makes sense as well.
But no matter the mechanism, it is certainly true that via very high frequency the training intensity HAS to be lower compared to what it could be when training in a rested state.

If we would assume for a second that higher intensity increases the risk for injury and higher volume makes for more opportunities for an incident to happen, albeit not increasing risk via an additional mechanism, then high frequency training would have you train at safer weights while still providing a very potent training stress. This look at things puts the Bulgarian method, that gets critiqued in the article, in somewhat of a different light. It also leads to the question what the training percentages in the article actually mean: What is 80% of 1rm? 1rm of that particular day? Training 1rm? Competition 1rm? And did every writer always mean the same thing with those?

I agree with you on your analysis of the rest of that, though the comment posted was in context of his problem with the max effort method, which would entail only ONE set of 405, and that set would in that context in fact  be less likely to cause injury.

I agree!

  There is also no real PROOF that working up to one heavy set is actually more draining on the cns than doing something like 5 x 8, only speculation from what Ive seen.  In my personal experience I would say the days when working up to a low(ish) rep max, compared to the days with more volume via "bodybuilding" type schemes are actually LESS cns draining, and those days can potentiate things like sprints, jumps, etc, much more effectively.

 In fact, thats what many program those days via the max effort method for, stimulation, not annihilation of the cns.  The higher rep range work at a lower intensity is programmed as a hypertrophy stimulus primarily, and athletic events need to be spaced further apart from these days, as theyre actually MORE draining.

I wonder as well where the idea comes from, that heavy low-rep sets are more fatiguing compared to lighter weights done often. Heavy sets can obviously produce fatigue, but high volume work-outs much more so in my experience. Doing a heavy set of 5 on squats vs. doing 5x5 sets across even with MUCH lower weights is not even comparable - the 5x5 is that much more fatiguing.

In the long run, progression of LOAD over time is king, however you choose to get there remains trivial as there is more than one way to skin a cat.

My thoughts exactly.

Raptor

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Re: Is The Maximal Effort Method Killing Our Athletes?
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2012, 07:00:15 pm »
0
Because "protagonist" is a synonime to "agonist". Or maybe it isn't. I'm sorry I wasn't born in an English-speaking country. I should be ashamed of myself. I wonder how well you speak Romanian. Or French. Or German? What's that? Oh...

I understand that you are not from America, so why try to use/make up the most complicated sounding words when you could get the point across with much less complex verbiage. If I was in your country, i wouldn't ask for a "carbonated beverage" i would ask for a "drink" or "soda"... you always make it out to sound like you have some educational background in anatomy/physiology/kinesiology with the way you talk and make up theories and hypotheses, but then you use the word "protagonistig" to talk about prime mover muscles. Why not just use words anyone on the forum can understand and comprehend, prime mover is much more self explanatory and informative than "protagonistig muscles." Think of how Kelly Baggett writes: simple, concise, where anyone can understand his point.

I miswrote "protagonistic". What's so unusual about that? We say "protagonist" for the "agonist" muscle in Romanian.

From PRO and ANTI. Protagonist and Antagonist.

And the fact that you understood what I meant proves I use the words well.

As for the educational background - I don't care about that and I have never pretended that. What I pretend is that I've read quite a lot and I have done quite a lot in the field. And I jump pretty well too despite having nerdish genetics and a nerdish background (haven't played sports until 15-16 years old).
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 07:03:02 pm by Raptor »
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

MattA

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Re: Is The Maximal Effort Method Killing Our Athletes?
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2012, 07:53:57 pm »
-1
Because "protagonist" is a synonime to "agonist". Or maybe it isn't. I'm sorry I wasn't born in an English-speaking country. I should be ashamed of myself. I wonder how well you speak Romanian. Or French. Or German? What's that? Oh...

I understand that you are not from America, so why try to use/make up the most complicated sounding words when you could get the point across with much less complex verbiage. If I was in your country, i wouldn't ask for a "carbonated beverage" i would ask for a "drink" or "soda"... you always make it out to sound like you have some educational background in anatomy/physiology/kinesiology with the way you talk and make up theories and hypotheses, but then you use the word "protagonistig" to talk about prime mover muscles. Why not just use words anyone on the forum can understand and comprehend, prime mover is much more self explanatory and informative than "protagonistig muscles." Think of how Kelly Baggett writes: simple, concise, where anyone can understand his point.

I miswrote "protagonistic". What's so unusual about that? We say "protagonist" for the "agonist" muscle in Romanian.

From PRO and ANTI. Protagonist and Antagonist.

And the fact that you understood what I meant proves I use the words well.

As for the educational background - I don't care about that and I have never pretended that. What I pretend is that I've read quite a lot and I have done quite a lot in the field. And I jump pretty well too despite having nerdish genetics and a nerdish background (haven't played sports until 15-16 years old).

The fact that i understood what you meant comes from the fact that i have an education in kinesiology. My whole point is most of the people on this site probably don't and with the way you spout off made up theories and words like you know something, you are confusing/misleading the younger people on this site. I know you are 30ish are whatever, but most of the people on here are 10+ years younger than you probably. It still amuses me that you have 5000+ post on this site and you think that gives you some credibility as an athlete/trainer.

Raptor

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Re: Is The Maximal Effort Method Killing Our Athletes?
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2012, 07:59:47 pm »
0
Luckily for me, posts like yours don't bother me anymore.

At least a kinesiology genius guru like you understood me, wow! Imagine if you didn't have that education, oh boy! I'm so impressed.

This is beyond silly.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

MattA

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Re: Is The Maximal Effort Method Killing Our Athletes?
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2012, 08:31:33 pm »
-1
Luckily for me, posts like yours don't bother me anymore.

At least a kinesiology genius guru like you understood me, wow! Imagine if you didn't have that education, oh boy! I'm so impressed.

This is beyond silly.

How can you possibly be so fucking old, you defend yourself like a little punk. Go dunk some more size 5 balls with that great athleticism you've developed.  Oh, and no shit, why the fuck should my post bother you? You are a grown ass man that still thinks he is a child, living for the words others write on a computer. Get out the house man.

Raptor

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Re: Is The Maximal Effort Method Killing Our Athletes?
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2012, 04:53:04 am »
0
You're retarded. You really are. You started with the premise that I tried to use the "fancy word "protagonist"" and because I don't know any better, I mispelled it and looked bad because of that. So you basically think I was trying to be arrogant and failed. If you knew any better then you'd see how I always use that word and it's not arrogant by any means.

But whatever man... show your diploma everywhere and be happy you did something in your life.

By the way - nice discussion by you on the actual subject of this thread. A real contribution.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

LBSS

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Re: Is The Maximal Effort Method Killing Our Athletes?
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2012, 05:56:25 am »
+1
for the record, in english, when referring to muscles, the words are "agonist" and "antagonist."
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

Raptor

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Re: Is The Maximal Effort Method Killing Our Athletes?
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2012, 05:57:12 am »
+1
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

LBSS

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Re: Is The Maximal Effort Method Killing Our Athletes?
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2012, 06:19:58 am »
+1
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

well played.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

MattA

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Re: Is The Maximal Effort Method Killing Our Athletes?
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2012, 11:32:02 am »
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You're retarded. You really are. You started with the premise that I tried to use the "fancy word "protagonist"" and because I don't know any better, I mispelled it and looked bad because of that. So you basically think I was trying to be arrogant and failed. If you knew any better then you'd see how I always use that word and it's not arrogant by any means.

But whatever man... show your diploma everywhere and be happy you did something in your life.

By the way - nice discussion by you on the actual subject of this thread. A real contribution.

Dude, it's not that I think you were trying to be arrogant, it's just pointless to use a more complicated word when on a forum, this isn't a dissertation you are writing. And why are you so butt-hurt with me having a diploma? I mentioned it once to explain why I could understand what you were trying to say with your abnormal jargon, then you start attacking that like i'm bragging about it and showing it off. You're retarded. You really are.  :-*

By the way - have fun playing on your computer 10 hours today with your internet friends  :headbang: :uhhhfacepalm:

Raptor

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Re: Is The Maximal Effort Method Killing Our Athletes?
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2012, 12:17:20 pm »
0
Thanks man. I will!

I have a computer science diploma so... heck, I gotta do what I gotta do. :-*
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps