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The cited study did not look at the training effect of exercises on the depended variable of VJ height, but a completely different topic, which is unrelated. And if someone comes and claims that it IS related, then this person hopefully does not perform squats to improve VJ - since I can tell you that power-output will be very low for a heavy squat - and hopefully, according to this study, only performs unweighted VJs, since those, according to the presented measurements, are highest in power-output (whatever that means).

This sums it up perfectly , i was about to type the exact same thing!  

Interesting argument.  I have a somewhat different perspective on the necessity of olympic lifts.

1) First, jumping with weights or snatch grip high pulls DO provide a lot of the same benefits of the olympic lifts, but the lack of scalability is what really ruins them.  When you take your clean from 100kg to 200kg you have undoubtedly gotten more powerful.  But increasing the weight used in the snatch grip high pull or some weighted jump might just be arrived at by jumping lower or performing a terrible pull.  You could make the argument that high pulls are a somewhat acceptable substitute if you have a coach to watch you perform them.... but then again if you have a coach with you all the time then why not just have him teach you the olympic lifts?

2) Second, I agree with Raptor at least about the full snatch.  I've performed and taught hang power cleans and hang snatch in commercial gyms, but to really get the groove in the catch portion of the full snatch you need to practice tons and tons of reps where you may fall down, throw the weight behind you, in front of you, etc.  That probably won't fly in most commercial gyms.

3) Finally, I think that while there are not great weighted substitutes for the Olympic lifts, I would argue that the necessity of the olympic lifts is somewhat overstated.  I think they got a lot of praise for the single anecdote about weightlifter sprint times from the Mexico olympics which was taken to be a factual study by most of the training community.  Whether the story is at all true doesn't really matter, I'm quite confident it couldn't be replicated today.  This isn't to say that olympic lifters are not extremely powerful, but more that you can get extremely powerful in your sport without performing the oly lifts.  Additionally, most sprinters are type IIx dominant and most jumpers are IIb dominant which makes them susceptible to a decent degree of unwanted hypertrophy if they do enough repetition to learn the oly lifts.  Experienced sprinters and jumpers usually don't have much problems with triple extension or RFD, that's why the best bang for the buck for them is to usually have them just get their squat variations up.  Athletes that do learn the oly lifts correctly usually are limited more by maximal strength then anything else.  For example, I was taught how to do hang power cleans somewhat correctly in college.  In November I did 3 reps of hang power clean with 275, dropping to about parallel to catch.  At the time my front squat max single was 315.   If I spent more time working on my hang power clean I may have gotten it up to 285...  If I was a competitive oly lifter this would have made sense... but since I'm not my time is best spent focusing on getting my squat up, keeping my bodyweight down and working on technique and RFD exercises more specific to my sport.  I'm confident if I could front squat 405 I could get power-clean to ~330 in a month or two.

4) Anyway, sorry to ramble, this is just a topic I've heard a lot of arguments from both sides.  As far as who should do olympic lifts other than olympic lifters, I would argue that American football players benefit from them because upper body hypertrophy is actually helpful in their sport,  additionally throwers benefit because because they don't really have much negative repercussions from added bodyweight.   You could also argue that athletes who are "slow" might benefit more from them than others.  For example if you learn proper power clean technique but can still only power clean 135 despite the fact that you squat 315.... Then clearly there's a problem.  Additionally, if you LIKE olympic lifts I would say then by all means include them in your training.... Just that they are in no way necessary, especially if you are already a good athlete who is somewhat new to the weight-room.  The overemphasis on olympic lifts in football is why you see guys in every college gym cleaning 95 with terrible form and doing quarter squats with 225.  Part of me wishes olympic lifts were less popular just so there would be more free olympic bars in the gym!

olympic lifts = upper body hypertrophy? seems like an odd thing to be worrying about in the context.

Good post, T0DDAY. I agree with a lot of what you said. My main argument against weighted jumps is always what you wrote under 1). That alone makes o-lifts superior.

About 3): I believe their necessity might not be overstated. It is just that the athletes you talk about might be able to get their max strength up via squats and benefit from it on the field, while that will not apply to average people with less talent. If you are the guy that was always picked last in PE, then you should do something for your explosiveness other than squats - which you will still have to do, because strong beats weak. If you are that genetic freak that jumps 35 without ever training for it, you can probably get away with only squats (although one could debate whether even this person would benefit from explosive lifts).

Yes, for non-athletes you are definitely right.  I was coming at the argument as someone providing training to an athlete who has already had at least moderate success in their sport (preferably track and field).  As great of an exercise that squatting is, it's shocking how non-athletes are able to increase their squat steadily without showing ANY ability to express that strength.  Olympic lifts are the best way to bridge the two.  The only problem I see is that those kind of people tend to have a really really difficult time learning to do Olympic lifts on their own.  They seem to always revert to some strange slow reverse curl maneuver.  But in theory, your right that the "last kid picked in PE" could def benefit tremendously by getting his olympic lifts up.

What's funny about scalability is how even the squat loses meaning if has really poor form.  That's why when I first train a low level athlete who has been in the weight-room I ask how much they can deadlift.  I think the squats a superior exercise, but the deadlift still gives the best estimation of total body strength no matter how its performed.

olympic lifts = upper body hypertrophy? seems like an odd thing to be worrying about in the context.

You'd be surprised how much muscle heavy power cleans can add to your frame.  Probably not a huge problem for most of the people here but if your a triple jumper or a high jumper every pound matters and the upper back hypertrophy is not gonna help much. 







I didn't have traps before I took my power clean triple from 225 to 275.  Never did more than 5 reps but they still blow up.   

By this you mean the Olympic lifts themselves or you're actually meaning any kind of strength-speed exercise? If so, then you could substitute the O-lifts with jump squats and get the same if not more.

You could bridge that gap with jump squats and depth jumps.

You could do that but....

1) Jump squats are a little bit harder to scale.  Unless you have a specific height that you are jumping to, how do you know when you are progressing?  Does it really mean anything if you claim "I added 50 pounds to my jump squat!".  But adding 50 pounds to your hang snatch certainly does.  Also, how long can you add weight?  Is it safe to do jump squats with 75% of your squat max?  It's safe to do oly lifts with as much weight as you can!

If we are gonna deal with just the archetype steven brought up (ie. last kid picked in PE class, lets call him X), you could also argue that he wouldn't necessarily learn to express his strength better through a jump squat.  Remember, X is someone who can add weight to his squat without increasing his standing vertical jump.  When, he puts a bar on his back and jumps how do we know he will won't be super slow and jump poorly?  The advantage to olympic lifts is once they weight is moderate you absolutely CANNOT do any part of the pull slowly because you are not strong enough to hold the bar in space unless it's been accelerated already.  This isn't provided by jump squats.  X could squat to parallel and slowly ascend until almost standing and then when almost standing accelerate without any hip drive whatsoever and jump.   I recognize this argument is kind of silly because the person X I am describing right now sounds so poorly coordinated that he probably won't learn olympic lifts either and maybe would actually be best suited to do some type of long GPP program with bounding, jumping, stretching, etc so he can use his body before he does anymore strength training...

The thing is - should you struggle with hang cleans and hang snatches (if you learn them by yourself etc) or should you just go with jump squats and that's it?

That's the real question! I would say it depends on a three things, why you struggle with them, how much you hate struggling with them, and how well you express your strength.

Do you have a video of yourself struggling with them?

Whats your olympic style squat max vs your hang clean and snatch PRs?  

Is your vertical jump at all tied to your squat/bw ratio?

When you struggle with them does that means your form is decent but your wrists and shoulders hurt because of the rack position for clean and that's annoying?

Do you use straps for snatch and chalk for cleans?  

Do you not mind working at them or do you absolutely hate oly lifts and just do them because you think you need to to jump?

Are you 1-footed or two foot jumper, whats your max deadlift?

Do you do full lifts or lifts from the hang or power-versions?

Do you do overhead squats and front squats?  

Is your upper-body weak, ie pullups, bench, etc?

Are you good at bounding, sprinting, general coordination?

Those are the questions you have to know before you decide to drop oly lifts.  Those and probably some more I forgot!  One thing you might consider is doing them as part of your warmup, that way they don't waste much time.  For example before I squat I do a set of 3 hang power snatches and then five overhead squats, with 45 pounds, 95 pounds, 115 pounds, and 135 pounds.  Then I rack the weight and start squatting.  That was I get in some work without wasting time or much effort because if I wasn't doing that warmup I'd have to warmup with light squatting.

soo if my front squat is near 320 and my bw is at 170 were do you think my vertical and my snatch should be? i think my vertical is not correlating with my strength at all, im 5 10 and my standing vertical is around 25 inches