Adarq.org

Just saw this vid posted by Daniel from JumpScience.com.  Looks like a good alternative until one learns how to do a snatch properly.  Maybe even better for jumping purposes?  Has anyone ever tried these before or know what they're called (I doubt this is a new exercise)?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb2llL7TE8M" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb2llL7TE8M</a>

It's clear that the individual in the video would be unable to perform a snatch/powersnatch with okay form. That does not mean that the same applies to you though. Just learn how, it works better than what he does and it is a scalable exercise. Therefore snatches and their variations allow training to happen. Jumping around without a clue is not training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unIULU43XpY&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Don't know how to embed video, but Daniel's Power Snatch looks okay.  Daniel recommends Hang Snatches, and other oly lifting moves in his jump programs, but I think he uploaded this for people who didn't have equipment. like bumper plates, or for people who have strict gyms that don't allow olympic lifting or stuff like that.  I agree that the Hang Snatch is still better, and can be self taught.

Those are not "okay" and he himself realizes this as well. The fact that he does not know how to do it also puts this "alternative exercise recommendation" into perspective. If your gym does not allow you to train, change the gym. You would not train in a gym that does not allow free weights, would you?

You're missing the point ^^^

First off, gyms, in contrary to popular beliefs, don't grow in trees. In my area there are barely 3 gyms with 2 of them being pretty much "health" gyms with no free weights. The 3rd, where I go, has free weights but you won't see anybody doing snatches and cleans and dropping the bar on the floor.

These are perfectly acceptable exercises as clean and snatch replacements^^^

I am not missing the point, it's you that has no clue what he is talking about. Not being able to drop the weights to the floor is not a reason not to snatch and clean. Being able to do so makes training more effective and is, at some point, important for progress. But it is largely irrelevant for any beginner in the o-lifts because those should not drop the weight but learn to be in complete control of it. I powercleaned 100 kg for reps before I ever had to drop a weight in the exercise. And if you think that what is shown in the video is an "acceptable replacement" for clean and snatch variations you suffer from grand delusion.

Daballa: you just paste the URL into your post, highlight it, and hit the "youtube" button underneath the "bold" icon. simple. Or you hit the "youtube" icon first, then paste the URL in bewteen the two bracketed things that pop up.

Yes this is probably way better for lower body explosiveness than a jump snatch. DOn't know what y'all are bickering about, this is basically a pchain dominant jump, with weights..? Use a trap bar for more specificity, and high bar for more quad involvement in a jump squat.

ANother benefit to this compared to trap bar or high bar squat jumps is arm positioning, this may enable the athelte to load the pchain better as in an actual jump. Another benefit compared to a jump snatch is that there is greater power coming from the legs in the triple extension since you don' thave to worry about hip flexion into a catch.


Another alternative, is instead of jumping with the weight, just let it fly up as high as possible without any arm involvement. It's basically an explosive deadlift into a shrug, except you are not trying to use your arms or use heavy weight, or shrug..

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsDXr65iOXU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsDXr65iOXU</a>

SO instead of shrugging your shoulders, just let the power from your hips drive the bar up into the air. Use light weight. I do this with sumo-stiff legged deadlifts. Minimal quad involvment though in those, much more quad involvement in the barbell jumps that he is performing. I think I'm going to try these myself, I wasn't planning on it because I was focusing on high bar squat jumps.

There would be fun to try with some broad jumps mixed in between

@Avishek thanks, I didn't know it was that simple, I'll keep that in mind when I post in the future.

@Steven IMO it's safer for someone who can't drop the weight.  Failing/missing a lift with the weight overhead can be worse than failing with it on your upper back.  I don't think I've seen Raptor squat heavy without safeties, but without spotters yes.  Commercial gyms are more likely to have at least one power rack as opposed to platforms and bumper plates.

It's just an alternative for someone without equipment, it's not better than the snatch and it's variations.  You say that you didn't need to drop weights until you hit 100kg in your power clean, but what happens after that?  They just keep using 100kg for there power cleans?  Eventually you would have to look somewhere else for your strength speed exercises.

@steven-miller

I just happen to harbor the belief that olympic lifts are not as specific as simple weighted jumps, and not as good for power development compared to weighted jumps. Joe Defranco holds this same opinion, commenting on how the most explosive movement in oly lifts comes form the bar, and the spine (and the study I am about to share shows that jump squats produce a more explosive barbell movement than power cleans).

http://www.defrancostraining.com/ask-joe-test/41-strength-training/180-hang-cleans-vs-weighted-jumps-for-explosive-hip-extension.html

People like power cleans because they're called "POWER" cleans, as if they develop power. Of course they do, but so do jump squats, and the barbell jumps Daniel demonstrates. I think the jumps Daniel demonstrates, trap bar jumps, and high bar squat jumps, innervate the muscles used in vertical jumping more specifically, and more so in general, than oly lifting exercises but I cannot find EMG studies demonstrating this. Using kinesthetic senses, it is clear though that you "feel it" more in your quads in jump squats than hang snatches..


In this study here, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21777152, the researchers measured the power of the whole system (bar +body, using a force plate), of the bar only, and the body only, utilizing a single sacral optimal marker (results may have been different if utilizing a single cervical optical marker since the oly lifts require so much spinal extension), in the squat, squat jump, and power clean in 9 male college students with 2+ years of oly lifting.
 It was found that BAR peak power was higher in a jump squat than in a powerclean in all the loads used, from 30-90%1RM. Body peak power was significantly lower in the power clean compared to jump squat again in all the loads used. The maximum body power during the jump squat occurred at 0%1RM and was triple that of the maximum power produced during the power clen at 90%1RM. Same story for system peak power (measured using the force plate). Greatest system power was achieved at 0%1RM and was more than double that of the maximum from the power clean.

I have the fulltext access and just read through all of it. I can't find any studies looking at the effects of jump squats versus hang snatches though, or barbell Daniel jumps.

THis does not mean that power cleans won't incrase your vertical jump. This study here (http://people.stfx.ca/x2006/x2006nsx/Challis-2004-EXAMINATION%20OF%20THE%20SCALING%20OF%20HUMAN%20JUMPING.pdf) found that oly lifting improved sprint speed and vert more than complex training of heavy squatting and jumping. However, only the oly training group improved in the squat jump, so this does not prove anything about the topic at hand, whether or not squat jumps are better than oly lifts. In fact this raises the notion that squat jumps are better, since practising them would improve them more than oly lifting and since JS performance improved, as well as vertical, we could expect better sprint times and counter movement jumps in a jump squat program.

Other ways of analyzing this are using the tendo. But I will stop here
Edit: oh yeah, what does this bar power versus body power mean?
From the article:
"Throwers or competitive
weightlifters, for example, may be more concerned
with bar velocity and power and not necessarily body
power, whereas jumpers and sprinters may be more
concerned with body or system velocity and power."

Again, body power was triple in the jump squat versus power clean. The fact that max power occurred at 0% jump squat 1RM though is weird, i don't know if that shows us that training jumps without weight is the best strategy therefore.

This study,( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Comparison%20of%20four%20different%20methods%20to%20measure%20power%20output%20during%20the%20hang%20power%20clean%20and%20the%20weighted%20jump%20squat.%20) which only looked at bar power and system power, found that  bar power was higher in a hang power clean versus a weighted jump squat. Results: system power was slightly higher in the jump squat, but the hang powwerclean was close, variations where huge. Without EMG though it doesn't mean much, we don't know which muscles are invovled and it doesn't answer the specificity question.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV6LC9LMl_o" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV6LC9LMl_o</a>


 By far the most specific olympic variation for vertical jump at 3:45, speed reverse curl swings w socks.