Author Topic: Deep SKWATZ  (Read 9355 times)

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DamienZ

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Deep SKWATZ
« on: February 27, 2011, 07:08:56 am »
+1
http://www.nsca-lift.org/HotTopic/download/Squat%20Depth.pdf

Quote
The Biomechanics of Squat Depth
Brad Schoenfeld, CSCS
This paper was presented as part of the NSCA Hot Topic Series. All information contained herein is copyright of the NSCA. www.nsca-lift.orgwww.nsca-lift.orgwww.nsca-lift.orgwww.nsca-lift.org
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 07:13:57 am by DamienZ »

DamienZ

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Re: Deep SKWATZ
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2011, 07:09:38 am »
0
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 07:13:23 am by DamienZ »

adarqui

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Re: Deep SKWATZ
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2011, 07:13:26 am »
0
point?

bbl sleep

DamienZ

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Re: Deep SKWATZ
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2011, 07:29:00 am »
0
point?

bbl sleep

well, decide on your own... :ninja:

My take is that a healthy athlete should be able to squat deep and sit in a deep squat comfortably. It's not only about strength/power but also about mobility, flexibility, balance and coordination...

adarqui

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Re: Deep SKWATZ
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2011, 05:06:13 pm »
+1
point?

bbl sleep

well, decide on your own... :ninja:

My take is that a healthy athlete should be able to squat deep and sit in a deep squat comfortably. It's not only about strength/power but also about mobility, flexibility, balance and coordination...

i think we need to define "athlete" here.. are we talking about an olympic lifter athlete or a basketball/football/etc athlete? because, for the latter, "balance + coordination + knee stability" is going to be best obtained through reactive/dynamic movements specific to their sport, squatting (any form) doesn't even come close.

As for flexibility, that level of flexibility isn't even needed for most sports. Having too much flexibility can be a bad thing, that's a really hard issue to discuss because it's so individual-specific. If I use myself as an example, too much flexibility/mobility work makes me perform worse -> when i'm "tight", I descend into my plants and just rocket right out, I can feel the tension.. if i'm "too flexible" due to too much stretching/mobility work, I feel like mush and I feel some "collapsing" going on in the plant. The same issue applies to my explosive bball dribbling, sprinting, etc.. If I stretch my quads, I perform worse.

One of the major issues with deep squatting is meniscus issues, regardless of any of the benefits you mentioned, meniscus issues are a real concern. That "shock absorbing tissue" is stress intensively during reactive/explosive/sport movements, taxing it further and in such "extreme joint roms under tension" doesn't sound like the smartest thing to me if you're a non oly lifter... If you're an oly lifter, then it's very smart, you'd want to get strong at those roms because it's specific to your sport, not doing so would increase injury risk.

I can't think of many sports where deep mobility is necessary or beneficial.. Plenty (i'd say a majority) of the most powerful athletes on earth don't have the mobility to squat ATG properly. It's rare when you find someone who is freaky-powerful with leverages beneficial to RVJ/sprint/etc that has perfect ATG squat form/mobility, extremely rare. I worked with over 30 NFL combine athletes one year and the vast majority of them were tight. Out of the two most powerful athletes, 4.39 40 vs 4.31 40, one was insanely tight, one was insanely flexible. Both had a shitload of muscle and were so strong it was ridiculous. One could ATG squat perfect (being 5'6), the other could only hit half with good form (being 6'1 or so).

Bottom line, individual differences highly influence whether or not someone should be going deep or not, so making a blanket statement about squat depth doesn't take into account those individual differences. For the vast majority of athletes interested in VJ/sprinting, going deep is very unnecessary because those athletes, who are naturally drawn to these performance events, have more ability to progress with half squatting due to leverages/mechanical advantage at those joint angles.

Beyond any of that, half squatting (slightly above parallel, NOT PARALLEL) is 100x more specific to vert/power based athletic movements than is deep squatting.

pc

DamienZ

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Re: Deep SKWATZ
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2011, 06:23:05 pm »
+1
it's funny that you feel attacked by me posting those articles!
i just saw them in a blog from bret contreras and i thought it was interesting to read what is going on in a deep squat.
i just posted them here for a discussion and not to attack you or anybody else to defend why they don't squat deep...

but still, do like boevski :ibsquatting:

DamienZ

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Re: Deep SKWATZ
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2011, 06:26:53 pm »
0
Beyond any of that, half squatting (slightly above parallel, NOT PARALLEL) is 100x more specific to vert/power based athletic movements than is deep squatting.

Isn't weighttraining always just GPP for the non weightlifter-athlete?
At the end it shouldn't matter how the strength was obtained...

Dreyth

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Re: Deep SKWATZ
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2011, 07:34:24 pm »
0
Just because it's GPP doesn't mean they are equally effective. I mean there is no thick black line right between specific training and GPP lol, i view it more as a "gradient" of sorts. But still, I just like deep squatting because it feels better for me. Maybe in the future when I stall on deep squats ill hit an intense partial squat peaking cycle.
I'm LAKERS from The Vertical Summit

adarqui

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Re: Deep SKWATZ
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2011, 01:45:25 am »
+1
Beyond any of that, half squatting (slightly above parallel, NOT PARALLEL) is 100x more specific to vert/power based athletic movements than is deep squatting.

Isn't weighttraining always just GPP for the non weightlifter-athlete?
At the end it shouldn't matter how the strength was obtained...

so then why would it matter if strength is obtained in a deep squat vs half squat?

checkmate

goodnight

do not pass go

do not collect $200

pc.

Raptor

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Re: Deep SKWATZ
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2011, 03:04:44 am »
+2
Beyond any of that, half squatting (slightly above parallel, NOT PARALLEL) is 100x more specific to vert/power based athletic movements than is deep squatting.

Isn't weighttraining always just GPP for the non weightlifter-athlete?
At the end it shouldn't matter how the strength was obtained...

so then why would it matter if strength is obtained in a deep squat vs half squat?

checkmate

goodnight

do not pass go

do not collect $200

pc.


Hahaha, I bet adarqui had sweet dreams after this.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

DamienZ

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Re: Deep SKWATZ
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2011, 04:20:40 am »
0
Beyond any of that, half squatting (slightly above parallel, NOT PARALLEL) is 100x more specific to vert/power based athletic movements than is deep squatting.

Isn't weighttraining always just GPP for the non weightlifter-athlete?
At the end it shouldn't matter how the strength was obtained...

so then why would it matter if strength is obtained in a deep squat vs half squat?

checkmate

goodnight

do not pass go

do not collect $200

pc.


deep squats seem to be healthier, less risky and more bang for your buck than half squats. you're always talking about your onees, hips and spinal compression. full squat is actually good for your knees, could gradually increase hip mobility (good hip mobility = healthier lower back) and as u can't take as much weight on a half squat there's less spinal compression.

adarqui

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Re: Deep SKWATZ
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2011, 04:36:13 am »
0
Beyond any of that, half squatting (slightly above parallel, NOT PARALLEL) is 100x more specific to vert/power based athletic movements than is deep squatting.

Isn't weighttraining always just GPP for the non weightlifter-athlete?
At the end it shouldn't matter how the strength was obtained...

so then why would it matter if strength is obtained in a deep squat vs half squat?

checkmate

goodnight

do not pass go

do not collect $200

pc.


deep squats seem to be healthier, less risky and more bang for your buck than half squats. you're always talking about your onees, hips and spinal compression. full squat is actually good for your knees, could gradually increase hip mobility (good hip mobility = healthier lower back) and as u can't take as much weight on a half squat there's less spinal compression.

why does any of that matter when you defeated your own argument?

I don't see how deep squats seem to be healthier or are less risky, especially from the studies/review you posted. half squat is just as good for the knees as deep squat (with less meniscus damage risk). Less spinal compression isn't an issue, landing from jumps is more stressful. Occasional rounding/butt wink while going ATG is an issue. The meniscus concern the study cited, is an issue. The extra load you can lift on a half squat is no issue for the spine, you have more leverage in that position.

my hip mobility is fine specific to my sport, I have no need for "deep hip mobility", you mentioned taking a shit on the live chat, well i'd just go onto my toes and I wouldn't have barbell weight on my back.

deep squatting has less transfer than half squatting has, in terms of athletic movement.. but you don't care about that, it's GPP right? so then it doesn't matter at all and this entire thread is pointless.. bottom line get freaky strong deep or freaky strong half, it doesn't matter one bit.

bball2020

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Re: Deep SKWATZ
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2011, 07:28:33 am »
+2
honestly from my perspective on a single rep vertical jump, especially standing vertical jump, a squat is like a special strength exercise, not just a general exercise, so it makes a lot of sense to do half squat from that perspective.

Raptor

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Re: Deep SKWATZ
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2011, 07:54:49 am »
+5
Well yeah, I consider full squats a GPP exercise and half squats more of a SPP exercise, since they are more specific to jumping and you can play with the load a bit.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps