Author Topic: Eliud Kipchoge will make another attempt at a sub2 marathon (Read 53668 times)

vag · « **Reply #30 on:** October 14, 2019, 09:58:09 am »

Quote from: maxent on October 14, 2019, 09:52:23 am

Idk, if you had two kipchoge's in the same race going at it what would happen? And concerning 'lab conditions' how many people are capable of going sub 2hr in ideal conditions? Do they even exist or is Kipchoge in a class of his own? Do people have treadmill times better than him?

This question helps me very much to demonstrate my argument.
The answer is nobody. Nobody can do this. Not even himself. That is the problem.

LBSS · « **Reply #31 on:** October 14, 2019, 12:17:40 pm »

Quote from: vag on October 14, 2019, 09:40:58 am

Agree to all of the above.
The slippery slope is : how will you ever enjoy the sports marathons when you know they are an inferior... how to call it... 'venue'?
It will still be , say, Mo Farah today, running alone far ahead from the 2nd probably, finishing at 2'08'' or something. You will be watching the exact same thing with Kipchoge, a guy running alone trying to bet his best, but knowing his best can never come close to the 'lab' one,
Imagine the same thing spreading. A perfect conditions 9:3x 100m. Who will sit to watch 10'' races again after that. Competition is great and all, but the real adrenaline spike is when you check the clock to see if they WRed. Where are we going if this is taken away from us?
Not saying it is happening, but yes , worried that this might have been the start of it.
Also all those thoughts don't subtract even the slightest percentage of my owe and admiration of Kipchoge's accomplishment, which goes far beyond a timed running section.

i don't know, i guess i disagree with what's compelling about watching sports. i don't watch sports expecting the WR to be broken every time, i watch to see people at the absolute limit of human ability trying to outdo each other. it's thrilling when records are broken, of course, but a photo finish is just as (maybe even more) exciting IMO. there's no comparison between kipchoge running 1:59 and him setting the WR in a race against other people who are also trying to run as hard as they can and beat him.

vag · « **Reply #32 on:** October 14, 2019, 12:27:42 pm »

The WR checking was about the 100m race example only.
Once again, don't get me wrong, i am not even sure i am convinced by my argument. But something is bothering me. I think what bothers me is that although this has nothing to do with the marathon, it masks the marathon. No marathon win will ever be the same , because no marathon win will be below 2 hours. Whatever happens, even if we see an epic marathon where the winner wins the runner up passing him at the last 100m and at an inhuman time of 2:00:01... "meh, Kipchoge would have owned that bitch", "bro, can you even run sub-2h?".
Maybe not for you and me and some other people, but for the vast majority i see that as a threat.
Anyway, good food from thought from your POVs too. Hope you are right and my skepticism is wrong.

adarqui · « **Reply #33 on:** October 14, 2019, 02:00:23 pm »

Quote from: maxent on October 14, 2019, 09:52:23 am

Idk, if you had two kipchoge's in the same race going at it what would happen?

that's a great point.

if kipchoge was battling kipchoge in berlin, he'd have gotten much lower than 2:01:39 in 2018 - which he ran alone after mile 16-18 or so?

Bekele dropped 2:01:41 recently. everyone wants to see Kipchoge vs Bekele now.. Kipchoge's wrecked him in every marathon though, so I don't suspect it would be any different.

Also, Bekele's 2:01:41 was not run alone, in fact, he had to chase Legese all the way to the end, who had almost a ~minute lead on him at some point, then he just smoked Legese in the last few miles. Legese ended up running under 2:03, which is incredible. But that's an example of Bekele having a rabbit to chase, and it ending up helping him. He's tried to chase Kipchoge before and gotten destroyed by it.

They may face each other in Tokyo 2020 (olympics). Conditions won't be ideal. Apparently it'll be very hot. That makes for a less fast race, but a more interesting one. Kipchoge should still dominate, like he did in Rio etc, or that hot London marathon a few years back, where he just crushed everyone.

Quote

And concerning 'lab conditions' how many people are capable of going sub 2hr in ideal conditions? Do they even exist or is Kipchoge in a class of his own? Do people have treadmill times better than him?

I feel like Kipchoge is certainly in a class of his own. Bekele dropped a nuclear marathon result - but he's not consistent in the marathon. You never know what you're going to get with him. That's the biggest difference between Kipchoge and EVERYONE else. Kipchoge always shows up and performs at the highest level. Everyone else has bad days, which is normal. Mo just ran 2:09:XX in Chicago, a very bad day for him.

The athletes pacing Kipchoge are world class, and many of them looked like they were working. lmao.

13.1x mph for 1h:40s is insanity.

adarqui · « **Reply #34 on:** October 14, 2019, 02:06:07 pm »

Quote from: LBSS on October 14, 2019, 12:17:40 pm

Quote from: vag on October 14, 2019, 09:40:58 am
Agree to all of the above.
The slippery slope is : how will you ever enjoy the sports marathons when you know they are an inferior... how to call it... 'venue'?
It will still be , say, Mo Farah today, running alone far ahead from the 2nd probably, finishing at 2'08'' or something. You will be watching the exact same thing with Kipchoge, a guy running alone trying to bet his best, but knowing his best can never come close to the 'lab' one,
Imagine the same thing spreading. A perfect conditions 9:3x 100m. Who will sit to watch 10'' races again after that. Competition is great and all, but the real adrenaline spike is when you check the clock to see if they WRed. Where are we going if this is taken away from us?
Not saying it is happening, but yes , worried that this might have been the start of it.
Also all those thoughts don't subtract even the slightest percentage of my owe and admiration of Kipchoge's accomplishment, which goes far beyond a timed running section.

i don't know, i guess i disagree with what's compelling about watching sports. i don't watch sports expecting the WR to be broken every time, i watch to see people at the absolute limit of human ability trying to outdo each other. it's thrilling when records are broken, of course, but a photo finish is just as (maybe even more) exciting IMO. there's no comparison between kipchoge running 1:59 and him setting the WR in a race against other people who are also trying to run as hard as they can and beat him.

yea i hate when the announcers are always yapping about seeing a WR.

it's a bad way to watch sports imho. that's when you begin diminishing performances if they aren't on par with some WR etc.

and when it comes to the marathon especially, conditions and courses are very important. That's why Berlin is the go-to race for trying to set a WR. you can't compare Berlin to Bostn/NY/Chicago/Tokyo etc. So in regards to the "perfect conditions course" etc, we already have that in marathon running. Some courses are crazy fast with perfect weather, some are much slower, some are hot, etc. So it just comes down to the competition at that point.

adarqui · « **Reply #35 on:** October 14, 2019, 02:22:11 pm »

Quote from: vag on October 14, 2019, 12:27:42 pm

The WR checking was about the 100m race example only.
Once again, don't get me wrong, i am not even sure i am convinced by my argument. But something is bothering me. I think what bothers me is that although this has nothing to do with the marathon, it masks the marathon. No marathon win will ever be the same , because no marathon win will be below 2 hours. Whatever happens, even if we see an epic marathon where the winner wins the runner up passing him at the last 100m and at an inhuman time of 2:00:01... "meh, Kipchoge would have owned that bitch", "bro, can you even run sub-2h?".
Maybe not for you and me and some other people, but for the vast majority i see that as a threat.
Anyway, good food from thought from your POVs too. Hope you are right and my skepticism is wrong.

that stuff w/ the fans already happens at every level. can't win there so might as well just not worry about them.

we'll see someone get under 2 hours official, that's for sure. everyone has been running alot faster since breaking2 - potentially shoe related, but also just guts related.

i don't think any of this masks the marathon. it's already masked.. drink stations w/ "performance fluids", shoe technology, etc.

the only way to unmask the marathon, is to have it run barefoot on grass w/ no calorie intake. it's been taken over by shoe/electrolyte companies.

adarqui · « **Reply #36 on:** October 14, 2019, 02:24:13 pm »

i'm with LBSS on this one. i see it just like someone trying to climb a mountain etc, just an oldschool endurance endeavor.

for me personally, it won't enter my mind as a bar for people to be measured up against, for actual marathon competition.

kipchoge's already done that in berlin etc.

adarqui · « **Reply #37 on:** October 14, 2019, 02:25:20 pm »

Obama tweeted out to Kipchoge / Kosgei.

Quote

Yesterday, marathoner Eliud Kipchoge became the first ever to break two hours. Today in Chicago, Brigid Kosgei set a new women’s world record. Staggering achievements on their own, they’re also remarkable examples of humanity’s ability to endure—and keep raising the bar.

https://twitter.com/EliudKipchoge/status/1183661760001253376

Kipchoge responded:

Quote

Dear Mr. Obama, Thank you for your special words. In life we hope to inspire others. Thank you for inspiring me. It would be my greatest honour if we could meet, and discuss how we can make this world a running world. As a running world is a peaceful world. #NoHumanIsLimited

https://twitter.com/EliudKipchoge/status/1183661760001253376

adarqui · « **Reply #38 on:** October 14, 2019, 02:28:53 pm »

btw. to see how impressive this feat was, just look at the pacer's reactions. these are some of the best runners on the planet, and they are just blown away by kipchoge.

they know well the difficulty in it, even with the artificial conditions etc.

let's not forget.. Desisa & Tadesse both participated w/ Kipchoge in breaking2 years back. All 3 had the same shoes/fluids/pacers etc. Desisa/Tadesse didn't even come close. They fell off so hard.

i'd like to see some other athletes try it. i don't think any1 on Earth other than Kipchoge (currently) can do it.

pc!

adarqui · « **Reply #39 on:** October 14, 2019, 03:52:19 pm »

im sure every1 knows i h8 the vaporfly's, 4%'s etc.. look at these alpha fly's.. eek.

still doesn't take much away from it for me, since everyone is running in shoes like this now & only a few people are pushing the limits in them.. not like they are turning every1 into monsters. still tho, it's a bit absurd.

i have a pair of 4%'s.. probably the worst running experience i've ever had. respect to any1 who can run in them. they feel like clown shoes to me.

adarqui · « **Reply #40 on:** October 14, 2019, 09:52:31 pm »

nothing we didn't know already, but nice video.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14xZ8iiFPYc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14xZ8iiFPYc</a>

Mikey · « **Reply #41 on:** October 15, 2019, 05:28:40 am »

i don't know, i guess i disagree with what's compelling about watching sports. i don't watch sports expecting the WR to be broken every time, i watch to see people at the absolute limit of human ability trying to outdo each other. it's thrilling when records are broken, of course, but a photo finish is just as (maybe even more) exciting IMO. there's no comparison between kipchoge running 1:59 and him setting the WR in a race against other people who are also trying to run as hard as they can and beat him.
[/quote]

100%

Some WR are 30+ years old. It doesn't make the current athletes any less relevant despite the times. Usain Bolt ran a 9.58 100m. Usain is a beast. It doesn't take away from any of the current top sprinters even if their running 9.8 or 9.9 etc.

The Australian record for a 200m is currently 20.06, which was set back in 1968 by Peter Norman.

The current fastest Australian 200m sprinter in 2019 ran 20.59. A 20x 200m is still elite. It just means once the record is eventually broken it will be a great accomplishment.

vag · « **Reply #42 on:** October 15, 2019, 06:48:19 am »

I'm a bit surprised by all you guys. I was just giving a possibility of a different perspective. I was wondering if this has a double meaning. If it is a start of something different. If there is any 'lab-style' vs 'free' sports case and if that is a good thing or not. And i repeatedly stated that i myself am not sure at all that there is, just thinking about it. Also that i am in awe of the achievement nevertheless. Your replies make me feel that i said i was passionately against the INEOS and you are trying to convince me about the opposite. How can you all be so sure, so soon. e.g. adarq you have one separate reply post to debunk the 'mask marathon' argument, yet you named this topic 'attempting a sub2 marathon'. I mean come on!
Anyway, maybe i am failing to express my skepticism well enough, or maybe i am misinterpreting your replies. Lets agree to disagree.

adarqui · « **Reply #43 on:** October 15, 2019, 10:19:37 am »

Quote from: vag on October 15, 2019, 06:48:19 am

I'm a bit surprised by all you guys. I was just giving a possibility of a different perspective. I was wondering if this has a double meaning. If it is a start of something different. If there is any 'lab-style' vs 'free' sports case and if that is a good thing or not. And i repeatedly stated that i myself am not sure at all that there is, just thinking about it. Also that i am in awe of the achievement nevertheless. Your replies make me feel that i said i was passionately against the INEOS and you are trying to convince me about the opposite.

i think you're misinterpreting my replies. not trying to convince nor do i think you're against it, i understand you're just bringing up some other points/perspectives.

Quote

How can you all be so sure, so soon. e.g. adarq you have one separate reply post to debunk the 'mask marathon' argument, yet you named this topic 'attempting a sub2 marathon'. I mean come on!

not seeing what you mean there?

pc!

vag · « **Reply #44 on:** October 15, 2019, 11:05:18 am »

Bleh, I already feel i continued this much longer than i should have.
.
I felt there was a lot of 'passion' against all i said. I repeatedly said im trying to open a philosophical discussion about it. Yet i didn't see not even one slight agreement to any of my concerns. And yes, the type of counter-arguments look like convince-like, re-read them. Im sure im biased a bit and its not as much as i say ( or as much as it sounds im saying ), but it is.

Quote from: adarqui on October 15, 2019, 10:19:37 am

Quote from: vag on October 15, 2019, 06:48:19 am
How can you all be so sure, so soon. e.g. adarq you have one separate reply post to debunk the 'mask marathon' argument, yet you named this topic 'attempting a sub2 marathon'. I mean come on!

not seeing what you mean there?

pc!

What i mean was:
A) how can you be so sure INEOS is not what im saying it could be? the event happened yesterday. how can you be sure it wont lead to a new type of sports? the lab-style im saying. i don't know that it will, i am not claiming it will, i know i wouldn't want it to happen and i know that INEOS is somewhat leaning to the other side. But how do you know it won't happen? Because your replies ( not yours yours andrew, im speaking to all ) don't seem to have the slightest concern.
B) the second point, is that in one of the 5 consecutive replies ( which might have also helped me misinterpret, you feel your opinion 'attacked' when you see 5 consecutive replies from 1 person ), you talked about how this attempt won't mask the marathon like i said im concerned. yet , even though this was clearly not a marathon but a 'rock-climb-like attempt' and 'will never mask the marathon', you named the topic 'Eliud Kipchoge will make another attempt at a sub2 marathon'. I mean , again, come on!

EDIT:
re-read it.

i feel like a drama queen. everyone said 'idk' and argued in pretty low profile. we just disagree and you dont share my concerns. so what?
only you adarq showed a little more 'passion' but then again its still perfectly polite and unbiased, especially considering your love for long running and the athlete himself.

apologies, lets close it here.
pc

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Author Topic: Eliud Kipchoge will make another attempt at a sub2 marathon (Read 53668 times)

vag

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